Christians vs Christians (yec)

[Homeless Nutter]

Unfortunately, I'll probably have to agree that people promoting critical thinking in their faith are probably in the minority. I would say most people just accept it. Just because the minority might be the ones promoting a reasoned faith, doesn't mean that the rest are promoting blissful ignorance. More than likely, like most of society, people just go through their days and lives without thinking at all, just reacting and sometimes analyzing after the why.

No, they don't promote "blissful ignorance". They promote an old book of barbarian poetry as the source of pretty much all necessary knowledge. Which is - in practice - worse. Trotting out old proverbs for every occasion isn't wisdom - no offense.

I've never met an atheist, or even a mildly irreligious person, who was an anti-theist without some sort of a personal - often traumatic - experience  (like a loss of a loved one, going sober, mental breakdown, etc), which could perfectly explain their sudden need to turn away from religion. </sarcasm> See that doesn't really work does it?

Well, no, it doesn't - for a number of reasons. But mainly - we're not talking about the role of logic and reason in becoming radically opposed to the idea of god, when you already don't believe in gods. Why are you trying to change the subject? I'm perfectly able to concede that people with a grudge against religion may have been hurt in some way. But then, of course - seeing negative consequences of religion all over the world is pretty traumatic in itself.

No, we're talking about the need for logic and reason when accepting faith. Which - as you admit it - there isn't any, since most people get there without a logical thought in their mind - or even without a choice, since religions insist on indoctrinating children. Therefore use (or abuse) of logic and reason is completely incidental to being a theist.

Wisdom, as mentioned is sound application of knowledge. You can be knowledgeable about complex math, but wisdom is knowing you don't need differential topology to solve 2+2=4 . Similarly, applying conventional worldly knowledge to the spiritual, interpersonal and supernatural isn't wise.

LOL... Nonsense. It's the prime excuse of every quack and every fraudster. We can - and almost universally do - apply "conventional, worldly knowledge" to the spiritual and the supernatural - it's just that when we do, we inevitably find, that it's all just fiction, or products of ignorance of how the "natural" world works. And everyone knows it, except for when talking about their particular blind spots, usually covering things they really want - eternal life, access to magical powers, etc.

And as for "the interpersonal" - I don't even know what you mean. What kind of "otherworldly" knowledge do I need for that, in your opinion? Don't we have psychologists, psychiatrists, sociologists, therapists - are those people sorcerers, or unwise?

Knowledge applied with bias, insincerity, harshness or that are illogical could still be knowledge, but what the verse was saying was that they're not a "good" foundation to apply that knowledge.

Yeah, great, but let me reiterate my question - is this "Knowledge applied with bias, insincerity, harshness or that are illogical" still "sound application of knowledge"? And if not - why are you and the bible calling it "wisdom", be it the "naughty" kind? Is this sarcasm again? Does it really help, for god's word to be sarcastic, when believers love to quote tiny passages out of context?...

Logic and reason alone never seem to be enough to make leaps of faith because we don't do things in a vacuum. We are complex social creatures and have many reasons why we would or wouldn't do/believe something. Getting to faith doesn't necessarily exclude logic and reason and no one has proven that point to me yet.

As I said - it mostly doesn't involve logic, rather than exclude it. And most people claiming to be using reason, when believing in magic, simply have a warped idea of what's reasonable. No matter how much mental gymnastics you use to rationalize your beliefs - at some point you have to make a giant leap into believing, that you are part of the correct religion, based on the actual book containing the word of god, and all the other systems of belief, and all the other holy books - to an impartial eye practically indistinguishable from yours in terms of evidence presented - are fraudulent, or otherwise wrong, at least to some extent.

Sure, a believer in aliens will call a proponent of fairies unreasonable. But neither of them applies the same rigorous logic to their own pet supernatural belief, as they do to each other's. Calling yourself rational and being rational aren't the same thing.

And all that talk about not doing things in a vacuum and complexity - just another excuse, for intellectually lazy people to jump to their own preferred conclusions, usually the ones forced on them in childhood. Hey, you can't figure out everything - therefore let's just accept whatever's convenient and what works for me and people in my immediate surroundings. Sure it's kind of "logical", and kind of "reasonable", but that's not the reason and logic I'm talking about. And let me repeat - if ANYONE found a truly rational and logical way into believing in supernatural - it would be a belief held by virtually everyone.