Morality

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So let's consider it as a testable hypothesis. We take a group of philosophy majors, a group of RNs, or a group of mechanics, a group of factory workers, a group of finance majors (groups without a college education, or at best a technical degree)
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In your view the philosophy majors would come out on top? This group contains better moral role models than the other groups?

I would disagree, that at best there’s no real difference between their actual moral lives.

Without the data, neither you nor I could make such a judgment. And it isn't really a testable hypothesis. I suppose it could be tested, in principle, but in reality: we will never know. But this is of no consequence to me. I never said that being earning a degree is always accompanied by moral growth. See the bold in the quote below

If we don't have the data to support either conclusion, how then can we can say education in particular majors is strong contributor to moral development?

If we have an adequate amount of diverse social relationships, we met a variety of people of exceptional good character, kind, considerate, honest, and compassionate types, we could form some reasonable conclusions here.

One of the things i can say in my observations, is that while there might be common variables among them, that have contributed to their goodness, it wouldn't be an education, or studying philosophy, etc...If they are good and educated, this seems to be in spite of their education, not a development that arose from it.

Hence the reason why I doubt yours, and Brian's suggestions.

If someone approaches psychology, sociology, or philosophy with the intent to use such knowledge to inform their moral decisions, they will (typically!) get a lot more from it than one can from study of the Bible.

If the contribution of fields like philosophy, is to improve our moral reasoning, our ability to work through moral abstractions, then perhaps. But actual moral development and behavior, there seems to be little to no correlation between the two.

“It has been hard to find any correlation between moral reasoning and proactive moral behavior, such as helping other people. In fact, in most studies, none has been found.” - Michael Gazzaniga

As far as the bible is concerned that relationship is even more difficult and complicated to parse. Such as how much influence of the story of exodus, the religious life of slaves, the suffering Christ, influence the moral lives of slaves, in their resistance and hopes? Nietzsche would contribute a great deal of our western moral development, as a result of Judeo-Christianitity, the transition for a master-slave morality, to slave-master morality, that values humility, charity, love, forgiveness, etc…  I’m sure you might argue otherwise, but I’m not too interested in arguing this point.

That rightness and wrongness of things exist independently of our own minds, that moral facts exists, like the chair in front of me does. That there’s a Good, that we’re all at some level oriented to...

I am a moral realist. I agree with you here. It's just that you think the Good is some kind of cosmic person. I think the Good is an abstract idea that can be understood through reasoning.

I view the Good as a reality and not an abstract idea, not as a “cosmic person”, whatever that might mean.

I believe in similarly to how Plato expresses it:

“in the world of knowledge the idea of Good appears last of all, and is seen only with an effort; and, when seen, is also inferred to be the universal author of all things beautiful and right, parent of light and of the lord of light in this visible world…”

In my view, the Good is something very real. And it exists independently of our opinions and subjective notions. It is like logic. Something isn't logical or illogical based on someone's opinion. There are objective criteria by which we categorize a statement logical or illogical. In that way, you could say that logic exists "independently of a mind." But (in the same way) there is no logic without minds. Likewise, there is no moral judgment without some kind of mind. (In a universe without minds, morality becomes quite meaningless, doesn't it?



In my view it’s not like logic, it is like Truth. Logic, and reason may be used to discern what’s is True or what is Good, but is not truth or good itself, which exists independently of logic. To say it’s similar to logic, is like suggesting a shovel used to dig gold out of a ditch, is like gold itself.

...that obligates us to do what’s right, that is it’s own moral authority, etc..

This is where you and I disagree concerning morality. But I don't know if most Christians have an urge to TRULY fulfill their moral obligations. S…

I don’t know about an urge to truly fulfill their moral obligations, but they can’t deny they have moral obligations,  or the primacy of good. Such beliefs prohibit them from being nihilist, and denying that they have such obligations at all.

There's plenty here for us to discuss. I agree with some of it, disagree with other parts. I would like to make sure we are on the same page first. Morality (or conception of the Good) can be rooted in reason. No God is necessary. This was demonstrated by Plato. Here is a modified version of his Euthyphro argument that shows that even morality commanded by God must actually be rooted in reason:



Morality isn’t rooted in reason, just like Truth isn’t rooted in reason. Reason can b used to help discern the Good, perhaps even the root of Good, but it is not the root itself.

The Good is anchored in reality, not in our minds, or reasons, and logic.

And as indicated, I’m all about Plato’s Conception of the Good,  in fact we can contain the entire parameters of our discussion within this, without having to address how this relates to my christian beliefs.