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Why not deism?
#42
RE: Why not deism?
(September 16, 2019 at 10:39 pm)Inqwizitor Wrote:
(September 16, 2019 at 9:42 pm)Grandizer Wrote: I was never into that whole thing about teleology anyway.

And you might call this way more ambitious than classical deism, but if one wants to be very stringent with the PSR, then this should be the natural conclusion. Even if you were to argue that the universe exists the way it is because God willed the universe to be such way, one could still ask why did God will it one way but not another?

And I wouldn't agree that this isn't a form of naturalism since I'm not positing a super-being out there that is somehow aware of this reality. I think the only beings that are conscious in this whole reality are entities like you and me, and it probably helps for us to have consciousness. I see no need for the whole cosmos to be conscious, however.

According to my view, there is an orderly hierarchy of levels of reality that logically arises, sure. But it's still all "blind" at the end. No sentient purpose behind it.
So, there is no sufficient reason for all possible worlds? I must be missing something. How does that pass the PSR? If we expand all possible worlds to some "megaverse" — what is the reason it exists? I feel like we need some starting point in any case.

I'm not sure if you're understanding my view correctly. If you replace "megaverse" with "God", what is the reason "God" exists? Whatever that reasoning you use to answer that question can probably be applied to the "megaverse" as well, unless you resort to special pleading that is.

The way I look at it is:

If you remove all things in existence, you're left with absolute nothingness which somehow ... exists. Can we make sense out of that? I don't think so, so it would be better to say that something is necessary to exist. But then the next question would be: what form must this something take? Why can't it take another form instead?

In answer to that question, I feel modal realism addresses it satisfactorily by positing that all possible worlds must be actual. So it isn't that there is a concrete reason we can pinpoint at and say that's why this exists. Rather, if we get rid of the "megaverse", then why do we have some worlds actual but not others? The more complete the answer, the better. The PSR perhaps may never be fully satisfied per the wording of the principle (if we're going with the most stringent possible), but if you have some respect for the PSR nevertheless, what more satisfactory answer is there?

Some naturalists are fine with the universe just is, and that's fine. They don't care about the PSR. You and I, on the other hand, do.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 1:22 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 15, 2019 at 1:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 1:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Fake Messiah - September 15, 2019 at 2:06 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:19 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by downbeatplumb - September 15, 2019 at 2:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by downbeatplumb - September 16, 2019 at 1:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 6:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 8:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 9:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 10:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 12:17 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 7:26 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 9:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 10:39 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 10:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 11:00 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 11:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 16, 2019 at 11:08 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 16, 2019 at 7:08 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 15, 2019 at 2:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 3:10 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 15, 2019 at 3:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 4:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 8:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 15, 2019 at 4:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 17, 2019 at 1:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Alan V - September 15, 2019 at 4:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 15, 2019 at 5:13 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 15, 2019 at 6:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 15, 2019 at 10:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Acrobat - September 16, 2019 at 8:24 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - September 16, 2019 at 9:27 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 16, 2019 at 11:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 16, 2019 at 1:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 16, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 8:13 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 9:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 10:17 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 10:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 17, 2019 at 11:45 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 18, 2019 at 11:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 18, 2019 at 11:52 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 12:02 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:22 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 19, 2019 at 12:43 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:48 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 19, 2019 at 1:10 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 am
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 19, 2019 at 12:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 19, 2019 at 12:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 7:31 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 7:31 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 7:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 16, 2019 at 10:00 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 16, 2019 at 8:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 16, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 17, 2019 at 8:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 17, 2019 at 11:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 17, 2019 at 11:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 2:14 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 2:28 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 2:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 3:17 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 4:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 4:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 2:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 17, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 3:10 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 9:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 18, 2019 at 2:37 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Cecelia - September 18, 2019 at 5:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 18, 2019 at 10:35 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:22 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 10:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 10:54 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 6:34 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 6:44 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 7:46 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 8:22 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:32 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 10:06 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 10:21 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 10:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 11:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 11:33 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 11:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 20, 2019 at 12:29 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 25, 2019 at 1:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 25, 2019 at 4:14 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 8:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 8:01 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 10:59 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 11:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 12:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 19, 2019 at 12:48 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 1:16 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 6:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by tackattack - September 19, 2019 at 5:26 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 5:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 8:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:46 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 11:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 20, 2019 at 8:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Fake Messiah - September 24, 2019 at 11:17 am
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 24, 2019 at 4:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Succubus - September 25, 2019 at 5:44 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 26, 2019 at 1:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 26, 2019 at 1:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2019 at 2:28 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 5:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2019 at 6:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 6:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 26, 2019 at 8:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 8:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 27, 2019 at 8:15 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 27, 2019 at 6:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 27, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 2:29 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 3:34 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 7:48 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 9:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Jackalope - October 1, 2019 at 9:39 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 9:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 26, 2019 at 6:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Valkyrie - September 26, 2019 at 5:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 27, 2019 at 6:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - September 30, 2019 at 8:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 8:19 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - September 30, 2019 at 9:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 10:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 11:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 5:07 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 10:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 1, 2019 at 5:58 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 1, 2019 at 10:25 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - October 1, 2019 at 9:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 2, 2019 at 12:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - October 3, 2019 at 12:38 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 3, 2019 at 6:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Jackalope - October 1, 2019 at 9:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - October 4, 2019 at 3:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 2, 2019 at 6:13 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 3, 2019 at 6:37 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 4, 2019 at 9:23 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 7, 2019 at 4:24 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Ricardo - October 7, 2019 at 5:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 7, 2019 at 7:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 8, 2019 at 9:09 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 8, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 9, 2019 at 8:51 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 12:15 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 1:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 2:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 4:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - October 9, 2019 at 4:33 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 6:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 6:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 8:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 7:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by possibletarian - October 9, 2019 at 8:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 10, 2019 at 9:00 am
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - October 10, 2019 at 10:19 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 15, 2019 at 10:04 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Cod - October 16, 2019 at 4:46 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 16, 2019 at 8:38 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 9, 2020 at 10:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - July 10, 2020 at 9:36 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 10, 2020 at 10:02 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - July 10, 2020 at 11:34 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Abaddon_ire - July 10, 2020 at 8:21 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 10, 2020 at 8:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by onlinebiker - July 10, 2020 at 12:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 16, 2020 at 6:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - July 16, 2020 at 9:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 3:39 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:15 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 4:21 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:48 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 16, 2020 at 10:01 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 4:50 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:55 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 5:31 am

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