Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 18, 2024, 11:55 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Why not deism?
RE: Why not deism?
(October 2, 2019 at 12:18 am)Grandizer Wrote:
(October 1, 2019 at 9:12 pm)Inqwizitor Wrote: @Grandizer suggests that all logically possible worlds could be that explanation; but I think that goes beyond naturalism.

It's one alternative possible explanation, and I don't see how it must go beyond naturalism. It is possible for natural reality to be all there is and for its existence to be a logical/metaphysical necessity. You seem to be defining nature in a way that does not go beyond the observable subset of reality, but that doesn't necessarily make what's outside of this subset of reality spiritual or of a qualitatively different kind of reality.

The modal realist postulation should be seen as an extension of what we see, rather than a "beyond nature" kind of thing.

ETA: The point is you don't know whether nature is metaphysically contingent or not, and you shouldn't confidently make a statement like that.

What you seem to be defining as naturalism is what I've understood as monism: there is one kind of reality. Naturalism, as I understand it, is the belief that our space-time continuum — the physical phenomena and laws that we know in this world, as they are in location and sequence — are the extent of existence. If physics is the same in every logically possible world — that it's like physical copies of this universe with all logically possible outcomes in location and sequence — then I think we're equivocating logical and physical possibility. It is conceivable there are other worlds that have the same physics as ours, but a different space-time, like a set of mirrors of how things in our own world could have been. My understanding is that what constitutes nature in our world, the physical matter and laws, could logically be entirely different in other worlds. In that case, what is natural there is not natural here.

(October 2, 2019 at 6:13 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: Its not inserting a god, but inserting a god!

Honestly, lol......?
Not inserting a god into nature, no.

Quote:You'd be pretty disappointed if the missing content of naturalism was chi, lol.
Like taoism? I don't think deism makes a claim about what the missing content is — that would be gnosticism — but only that nature is missing an explanation if it's all there is (a brute fact). God is the word to describe the missing content because it connotes a cause of nature, rather than a cause within nature. It also leaves room for the idea of purpose, as in final cause, in the Aristotelian sense. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/arist...#FinCauDef

Quote:Stop with this "we don't know stuff" nonsense.  Demonstrate that you know anything.  Shit or get off the pot.  That's a reasonable request, right?  I've long wondered why people have such trouble with the notion of nature as metaphysically ultimate.  Especially the faithful.  Everything we point to as a reason for gods super-duperness is, ultimately, some facet of the natural universe.  You'd think that rubbing those two sticks together all these years would have started a fire by now, but no.
It's not nonsense, it's honesty. How do we know anything? We have generally agreed it's by observation and reasoning. We can go around in circles about justification, but we can know whether something is without knowing what it is. Dark matter is a natural example of this within our universe: we can know there is something else there, but we don't know what, yet. Either that, or we have to question and rearrange basic understanding of our physical knowledge. Even that ability to adjust conceptions of nature demonstrates the metaphysical contingency of natural existence.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 1:22 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 15, 2019 at 1:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 1:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Fake Messiah - September 15, 2019 at 2:06 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:19 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by downbeatplumb - September 15, 2019 at 2:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 2:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by downbeatplumb - September 16, 2019 at 1:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 6:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 8:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 15, 2019 at 9:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 10:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 12:17 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 7:26 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 9:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 10:39 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 16, 2019 at 10:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 11:00 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 11:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 16, 2019 at 11:08 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 16, 2019 at 7:08 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 15, 2019 at 2:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 3:10 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 15, 2019 at 3:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 15, 2019 at 4:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 8:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 15, 2019 at 4:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 17, 2019 at 1:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Alan V - September 15, 2019 at 4:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 15, 2019 at 5:13 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 15, 2019 at 6:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 15, 2019 at 10:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Acrobat - September 16, 2019 at 8:24 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - September 16, 2019 at 9:27 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 16, 2019 at 11:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 16, 2019 at 1:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 16, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 8:13 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 9:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 16, 2019 at 10:17 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 16, 2019 at 10:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 17, 2019 at 11:45 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 18, 2019 at 11:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 18, 2019 at 11:52 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 12:02 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:22 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 19, 2019 at 12:43 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:48 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 19, 2019 at 1:10 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 am
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 19, 2019 at 12:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 12:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 19, 2019 at 12:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 7:31 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 7:31 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 7:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 16, 2019 at 10:00 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by brewer - September 16, 2019 at 8:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 16, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 17, 2019 at 8:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Nay_Sayer - September 17, 2019 at 11:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 17, 2019 at 11:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 2:14 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 2:28 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 2:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - September 17, 2019 at 3:17 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 4:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 17, 2019 at 4:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 2:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 17, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 3:10 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 17, 2019 at 9:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 18, 2019 at 2:37 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Cecelia - September 18, 2019 at 5:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 18, 2019 at 10:35 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:22 am
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 10:49 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 10:54 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 6:34 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 6:44 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 7:46 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 7:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 8:22 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:32 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 10:06 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 10:21 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 10:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 11:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 11:33 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 11:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 20, 2019 at 12:29 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 25, 2019 at 1:09 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 25, 2019 at 4:14 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 8:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by chimp3 - September 19, 2019 at 8:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Belacqua - September 19, 2019 at 8:01 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 10:59 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 11:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 12:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Objectivist - September 19, 2019 at 12:48 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 1:16 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 1:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 19, 2019 at 6:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by tackattack - September 19, 2019 at 5:26 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 5:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:40 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 19, 2019 at 8:45 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 8:46 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 9:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 19, 2019 at 11:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by EgoDeath - September 20, 2019 at 8:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Fake Messiah - September 24, 2019 at 11:17 am
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - September 24, 2019 at 4:38 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Succubus - September 25, 2019 at 5:44 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 26, 2019 at 1:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - September 26, 2019 at 1:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2019 at 2:28 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 5:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - September 26, 2019 at 6:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 6:55 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - September 26, 2019 at 8:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 26, 2019 at 8:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 27, 2019 at 8:15 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 27, 2019 at 6:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 27, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 2:29 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 3:34 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 7:48 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 9:59 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Jackalope - October 1, 2019 at 9:39 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 9:47 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 26, 2019 at 6:49 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Valkyrie - September 26, 2019 at 5:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Rahn127 - September 27, 2019 at 6:29 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - September 30, 2019 at 8:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 8:19 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - September 30, 2019 at 9:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - September 30, 2019 at 10:08 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - September 30, 2019 at 11:07 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 5:07 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 1, 2019 at 10:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 1, 2019 at 5:58 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 1, 2019 at 10:25 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - October 1, 2019 at 9:12 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 2, 2019 at 12:18 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Inqwizitor - October 3, 2019 at 12:38 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - October 3, 2019 at 6:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Jackalope - October 1, 2019 at 9:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by LastPoet - October 4, 2019 at 3:04 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 2, 2019 at 6:13 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - October 3, 2019 at 6:37 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 4, 2019 at 9:23 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 7, 2019 at 4:24 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Ricardo - October 7, 2019 at 5:23 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 7, 2019 at 7:42 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 8, 2019 at 9:09 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 8, 2019 at 1:20 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 9, 2019 at 8:51 am
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 12:15 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 1:58 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 2:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 2:37 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 4:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - October 9, 2019 at 4:33 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 6:25 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 6:43 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Simon Moon - October 9, 2019 at 7:02 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Anomalocaris - October 9, 2019 at 8:27 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 9, 2019 at 7:03 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by possibletarian - October 9, 2019 at 8:11 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 10, 2019 at 9:00 am
RE: Why not deism? - by mordant - October 10, 2019 at 10:19 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 15, 2019 at 10:04 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Cod - October 16, 2019 at 4:46 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Mister Agenda - October 16, 2019 at 8:38 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 9, 2020 at 10:30 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - July 10, 2020 at 9:36 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 10, 2020 at 10:02 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Grandizer - July 10, 2020 at 11:34 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Abaddon_ire - July 10, 2020 at 8:21 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 10, 2020 at 8:54 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by onlinebiker - July 10, 2020 at 12:36 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 16, 2020 at 6:14 am
RE: Why not deism? - by The Grand Nudger - July 16, 2020 at 9:51 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 3:39 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:15 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 4:21 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:48 am
RE: Why not deism? - by AniKoferBo - July 16, 2020 at 10:01 pm
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 4:50 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Peebo-Thuhlu - July 17, 2020 at 4:55 am
RE: Why not deism? - by Porcupine - July 17, 2020 at 5:31 am

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Is Atheism a Religion? Why or why not? Nishant Xavier 91 7463 August 6, 2023 at 1:38 pm
Last Post: LinuxGal
  Deism: I don't get it robvalue 114 16997 February 16, 2015 at 5:55 pm
Last Post: emilynghiem
  Whats the point of deism? tor 21 6831 March 19, 2014 at 11:05 pm
Last Post: MindForgedManacle
  Religion, Atheism, and Deism -and the middle ground. Mystic 6 3567 March 9, 2014 at 2:41 am
Last Post: rsb
  Why, Why,Why! Lemonvariable72 14 4041 October 2, 2013 at 1:21 pm
Last Post: Doubting Thomas
  Refute a first cause which most people would call G-d AKA Deism xdrgnh 63 22227 May 12, 2013 at 6:26 pm
Last Post: Minimalist
  WHY WHY WHY??!?!? JUST STOP...... Xyster 18 5765 March 18, 2011 at 12:27 pm
Last Post: Zenith



Users browsing this thread: 9 Guest(s)