Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: November 22, 2025, 7:56 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Morality without God
#92
RE: Morality without God
(April 4, 2021 at 9:21 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Well then let's get this silent premise "unsilented":1) My tires run most efficiently at 32 psi
2) My right front tire is at 25 psi
3) It is good that my tires run efficiently.
4) I ought to do what is good.
Therefore, I ought to fill my right front tire to 32 psi

Premise 1 and 2 are based on empirical observation. I mean ethical non-naturalists love empirical date in their premises, but they also see that premise 3 comes from an understanding of what is good. I don't see how the logic follows (how the ought gets into the conclusion) without premise 3. Yeah, premise 3 is a no-brainer. But it isn't derived from studying sense data in the world. It is derived from reason/understanding alone. Premise 3 is not a description of a feature in the world. Premise 4 is an axiom. Probably one you accept. As you probably agree, it isn't worth debating. If someone disagrees with premise 4, they simply aren't interested in morality. I put premise 4 there for due diligence, since invisible premises came up. You could replace this with other axioms "I desire that my car run efficiently"... "I ought to do what I desire" etc. But I left it the way it is to keep parallels with moral thinking easy to see.


I would frame 3 and 4 a bit differently.

3. If my tires run efficiently, I will save money and be safer.
4. I have a goal to save money and be safer.
5. So I should fill my tire to 32 psi to meet my goal.

The 'should' statement comes from the goal I have. That goal may or may not be 'good' in a larger scheme. But if I want to achieve my goal, certain actions need to be done.

The difficulty comes in selecting the goals. For example, having the goal of killing all of my enemies is not one that most societies recognize without limitations. Hence, my goals may well conflict with your goals. The question of whose goals take priority is, in some senses, the goal of laws and of morality (two very different things, I would point out).

And, I would say that in both law and morality, the idea is that there are more worthy goals and less worthy ones. There are goals that promote a smoothly functioning society and those that do not. There are those that promote happiness and well-being and those that do not.

The is/ought distinction seems to me to ultimately be a question of goals. The 'is' side has no goals: it says what various courses of action will lead to. The 'ought' chooses between the possibilities so as to meet certain desirable consequences. What makes a consequence desirable is the next issue, of course.
Reply



Messages In This Thread
Morality without God - by Superjock - March 30, 2021 at 8:44 am
RE: Morality without God - by Paraselene - March 30, 2021 at 8:47 am
RE: Morality without God - by zwanzig - March 30, 2021 at 8:52 am
RE: Morality without God - by Superjock - March 30, 2021 at 9:48 am
RE: Morality without God - by Mister Agenda - April 1, 2021 at 9:20 am
RE: Morality without God - by Superjock - April 1, 2021 at 10:13 am
RE: Morality without God - by Mister Agenda - April 2, 2021 at 10:03 am
RE: Morality without God - by Belacqua - April 2, 2021 at 6:57 pm
RE: Morality without God - by vulcanlogician - April 3, 2021 at 4:49 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Belacqua - April 4, 2021 at 1:24 am
RE: Morality without God - by vulcanlogician - April 4, 2021 at 9:21 pm
RE: Morality without God - by polymath257 - April 4, 2021 at 10:17 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Belacqua - April 5, 2021 at 6:38 am
RE: Morality without God - by Duty - March 30, 2021 at 9:32 am
RE: Morality without God - by Fake Messiah - March 30, 2021 at 9:34 am
RE: Morality without God - by Fake Messiah - March 30, 2021 at 10:04 am
RE: Morality without God - by Paraselene - March 30, 2021 at 10:12 am
RE: Morality without God - by LadyForCamus - March 30, 2021 at 11:15 am
RE: Morality without God - by Gwaithmir - March 30, 2021 at 11:26 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 11:49 am
RE: Morality without God - by Superjock - March 30, 2021 at 1:32 pm
RE: Morality without God - by brewer - March 30, 2021 at 11:57 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 12:13 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 30, 2021 at 1:25 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 1:35 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 30, 2021 at 1:39 pm
RE: Morality without God - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - March 30, 2021 at 3:01 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 31, 2021 at 9:49 am
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 1:40 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 30, 2021 at 1:41 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 1:51 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 30, 2021 at 2:08 pm
RE: Morality without God - by vulcanlogician - March 30, 2021 at 5:50 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 1:49 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 1:53 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Superjock - March 30, 2021 at 3:15 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Abaddon_ire - March 30, 2021 at 5:20 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 2:12 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 30, 2021 at 2:16 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 2:24 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 2:33 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 30, 2021 at 8:43 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 8:59 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 30, 2021 at 9:13 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 9:19 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 30, 2021 at 9:30 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Fake Messiah - March 30, 2021 at 11:09 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 11:12 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 31, 2021 at 2:47 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 2:48 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 2:55 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 3:05 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 3:08 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 3:31 pm
RE: Morality without God - by awty - March 30, 2021 at 3:49 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 3:54 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 5:30 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 5:56 pm
RE: Morality without God - by vulcanlogician - March 30, 2021 at 6:25 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2021 at 6:36 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Paraselene - March 30, 2021 at 9:14 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2021 at 10:12 am
RE: Morality without God - by zwanzig - March 31, 2021 at 10:41 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2021 at 10:49 am
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - March 31, 2021 at 12:50 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Fake Messiah - March 31, 2021 at 1:35 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2021 at 4:23 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Fake Messiah - March 31, 2021 at 9:49 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Rahn127 - April 1, 2021 at 12:48 am
RE: Morality without God - by Ravenshire - April 1, 2021 at 11:04 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Rev. Rye - April 1, 2021 at 1:05 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Architect Of Fate - April 1, 2021 at 2:27 am
RE: Morality without God - by Fake Messiah - April 1, 2021 at 5:41 am
RE: Morality without God - by zwanzig - April 1, 2021 at 7:30 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2021 at 8:01 am
RE: Morality without God - by zwanzig - April 1, 2021 at 8:08 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2021 at 8:19 am
RE: Morality without God - by polymath257 - April 1, 2021 at 12:26 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Belacqua - April 1, 2021 at 11:08 pm
RE: Morality without God - by LadyForCamus - April 1, 2021 at 11:23 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - April 2, 2021 at 2:04 am
RE: Morality without God - by Belacqua - April 2, 2021 at 2:12 am
RE: Morality without God - by Angrboda - April 2, 2021 at 8:35 am
RE: Morality without God - by Belacqua - April 2, 2021 at 4:09 pm
RE: Morality without God - by downbeatplumb - April 1, 2021 at 1:55 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2021 at 12:13 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2021 at 10:48 am
RE: Morality without God - by Duty - April 2, 2021 at 4:16 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2021 at 5:35 pm
RE: Morality without God - by vulcanlogician - April 3, 2021 at 5:50 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Rahn127 - April 3, 2021 at 7:34 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2021 at 6:46 am
RE: Morality without God - by polymath257 - April 4, 2021 at 9:51 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 5, 2021 at 7:12 am
RE: Morality without God - by vulcanlogician - April 6, 2021 at 9:13 pm
RE: Morality without God - by polymath257 - April 7, 2021 at 9:42 am
RE: Morality without God - by vulcanlogician - April 7, 2021 at 11:21 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 7, 2021 at 8:44 am
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - April 7, 2021 at 10:08 am
RE: Morality without God - by JohnJubinsky - June 17, 2021 at 5:51 pm
RE: Morality without God - by JohnJubinsky - June 17, 2021 at 5:51 pm
RE: Morality without God - by The Grand Nudger - June 17, 2021 at 5:57 pm
RE: Morality without God - by Ranjr - June 17, 2021 at 6:10 pm

Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Mike Litorus owns god without any verses no one 3 1152 July 9, 2023 at 7:13 pm
Last Post: brewer
  Morality Kingpin 101 15346 May 31, 2023 at 6:48 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  A Case for Inherent Morality JohnJubinsky 66 13405 June 22, 2021 at 10:35 am
Last Post: John 6IX Breezy
  Morality Agnostico 337 68890 January 30, 2019 at 6:00 pm
Last Post: vulcanlogician
  Atheists who announce "I'm good without god" Bahana 220 46338 October 8, 2018 at 5:15 pm
Last Post: Belacqua
  Developing systems of morality, outside of religious influence. Kookaburra 28 6859 March 20, 2018 at 1:27 am
Last Post: haig
  Objective morality as a proper basic belief Little Henry 609 223004 July 29, 2017 at 1:02 am
Last Post: Astonished
Video The Married Atheist vid: Morality from science? robvalue 5 2586 March 19, 2016 at 2:57 pm
Last Post: brewer
  How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard Dystopia 206 63811 September 21, 2015 at 11:25 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Does religion corrupt morality? Whateverist 95 35861 September 7, 2015 at 2:54 am
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)