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How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 8:13 pm
(This post was last modified: July 22, 2015 at 8:14 pm by Dystopia.)
Why bother with complex explanations on how we know so little about the universe that we can't make too broad assumptions when you can simply counter it with some really simple questions?
The argument from causation, first cause or, as it is frequently called by sophisticated theologians, the cosmological argument, usually consists in the following two premises and conclusion:
1 - Everything that exists has or needs a cause
2 - The universe began to exist
3 - Therefore, the universe needs a cause
From the conclusion theists usually deduce that the only possible cause to the universe and all existence is god, given the amount of supernatural and unimaginable power required to create or just set in motion the events that lead to the creation of life, matter and our beautiful ability to breathe oxygen.
Here's how to refute it without needing to know any science at all:
Atheist asks ---> If everything that exists has or needs a cause, then god, whichever we are talking about, needs a cause as well. What caused god?
Theists replies --> God doesn't need a cause because he was always there, he is infinite, timeless, and exists outside of time and space - Hence only him could have caused the events that lead to the creation of the universe as we know it
Atheist asks - Then apparently not everything needs a cause, so why does the universe need one if god doesn't? I rest my case (And premise 1 is false)
TL;DR -----> If god doesn't need a cause then why the fuck does the universe need one? Answer - Special pleading.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 8:23 pm
Don't you know? 'God' is different...or so the assholes claim.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 8:28 pm
(July 22, 2015 at 8:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Don't you know? 'God' is different...or so the assholes claim.
And special
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 9:02 pm
Actually, modern formulations of the first cause argument will list the first premise as "everything that BEGINS to exist needs a cause", then they will declare that God never began to exist. Really? Prove it. We have no evidence of anything that didn't begin to exist. Therefore, until you can present your uncaused cause for examination, it's just a load of bullshit.
There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide mankind that cannot be achieved as well or better through secular means.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 9:08 pm
I find saying it's all bullshit to be a short yet satisfying response.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 9:39 pm
I usually debunk it by saying "not necessarily" after the first sentence. The End.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 9:47 pm
(This post was last modified: July 22, 2015 at 9:47 pm by ignoramus.)
Sorry, but you guys cannot use logic to explain god away!
God is "magic", or haven't you worked that out yet?
Just ask any theist.
God has absolutely no respect for logic and the laws of nature and likewise, neither do his followers.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 10:19 pm
(July 22, 2015 at 9:02 pm)Cephus Wrote: Actually, modern formulations of the first cause argument will list the first premise as "everything that BEGINS to exist needs a cause", then they will declare that God never began to exist. Really? Prove it. We have no evidence of anything that didn't begin to exist. Therefore, until you can present your uncaused cause for examination, it's just a load of bullshit.
The universe has always existed. Through the history of the universe, going backwards, there was always some material existence and a series of causal relationships. What existed before the big bang is discussed by Lawrence Krauss and other cosmologists. This is equally as logical as "God" has always existed, but is based on evidence, logic, deduction mathematics etc. Do we understand it all fully? NO, but we oughtn't to plug the gap with goddidit.
God of the gaps <=> We don't know <=> God of the gaps <=> We don't know <=> God of the gaps <=> We don't know <=> God of the gaps . . .
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 22, 2015 at 10:41 pm
(July 22, 2015 at 8:28 pm)Dystopia Wrote: (July 22, 2015 at 8:23 pm)Minimalist Wrote: Don't you know? 'God' is different...or so the assholes claim.
And special
Yeah.... in the "short bus" sense of the word.
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RE: How to debunk the first cause argument without trying too hard
July 23, 2015 at 5:37 am
(This post was last modified: July 23, 2015 at 5:38 am by Mystic.)
The premise is not everything needs a cause. The premise is everything that begins to exist needs a cause.
It's not only proven to be a valid argument, but a sound argument.
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