Turkey's role in middle eastern politics

[kılıç_mehmet]

I am not your enemy, so how do you explain that you think I am blatantly lying? Do not attempt the "you are reading the work of my enemies" crap because I tend to like to dig down to the common denominator when it comes to sources.

Whether it was your parents or now, you were definitely spoon-fed something.

You are not, simply because you're not an armenian. Turks and Americans had little to no hostility in the history of both our countries.
However, you're simply repeating the same stuff that I've heard from all people who defend the so-called genocide more passionately than the armenians themselves. They most certainly won't use such words, quotes or whatever, but simply say, "fug u mongol turk go back to mongolia armenia 4ever" and quit. I know because my youtube channel is full of their comments.
I am no more spoon-fed as you say I am, than you are.

Holy shit. You are blatantly lying. I did not say I did not mean to say anything. In fact, I told you that I meant exactly what I said.

That's what I said. You should pick your words more carefully.

If anyone blames living Germans for the Holocaust, it is people like you, who are too zealous to look beyond their noses.

As a matter of fact, yes. The germans constituted the guards, book keepers and had power over virtually everything that concerned the jews in the concentration camps. And I want to remind you that "I was simply following orders" was considered to be an invalid form of defense at the Nüremberg trials?

Who tells them that, kilic?

Starting from pre-WWII Germany to the present, Germans have been subject to extreme propaganda. From newspapers to allied soldiers forcibly dragging Germans to concentration camps to show them what was going on there, the Germans were taught that they were responsible for the holocaust. This is the reason why no one objected when Germany payed huge amounts in cash to a new political entity, Israel. Also, Germany cannot object to fulfilling every monetary desire of the EU, even though the Germans are protesting now, it is Germany who keeps the members with shitty economies up and running.
It's all part of it.
Hell, they banned every Return to castle wolfenstein game not because the main character was killing germans, because there were swastika flags featured in the game.

You shouldn't feel guilty. A. You didn't do anything apart from be willfully ignorant. B. Your ancestors may not have taken part in the massacres. Just because someone is Turkish it does not mean you are related to them closely enough to call them your ancestors.

Well, what exactly am I supposed to do, then? True, my grandparents were not even in Anatolia when the so-called genocide supposedly happened, however I do not look at this from a geographical perspective. I see the Turkish people as one. Wherever they might be, or to whatever country they might belong to. My grandparents have fled here when the bolsheviks took power. That preceeds the so-called genocides that everyone talks about. Even though, we never felt a sense of distinctiveness, because we were in a Turkish populated country.
We were with out kind. We were at peace.
So even if I am not from these lands in terms of ancestry, I feel in unison with it's people, and we form the Turkic majority of the country together.
This is the reason why I defend them and myself against blatant accusations, coming from a people who have chosen to use force to rip off a piece of a rotting carcass that is called the Ottoman empire, in a place where they didn't even constitute a majority.

Kilic, your arrogance gives me a headache. I'm not "blaming" anyone. I am pointing out facts. As for the Armenians, are you speaking for them now? I thought they were lowly, pitiful individuals. I doubt they would want you speaking for them. I know if I were Armenian, you would piss me off immensely.

Well, who is to blame, then?
And well, they sure are pitiful, however, they also play damn good chess, so they can't be that lowly.
And I am not speaking for them, they speak for themselves. I'm just quoting them. From Hayk, to me, to you. That simple.

Yes, it matters. You do realize it was Ottoman and Young Turks, making it politically separate from "your" Turkey, right? The army was actually made up of Ottomans. Too bad they weren't actually foot rests.

Well, it surely was politically seperate. Tensions rose even further during the war for independence. The army was not made up from "Ottomans", it was made up from Turks. The same people who fought in the Turkish armies that fought in our war for independence, and the same people who fought in Korea.
The country was a seperate entity, but the people were the damn same people(with the exception of Kurds, of course. I generally hold them in a seperate position throughout Turkish history as a whole, simply because they were too busy with tribal warfare amongst their own kind, and had no relationships whatsoever with Turks, or Armenians, although they might have abducted a few Armenian girls for themselves).

I'm trying very hard not to be rude here, but you are making it difficult. You couldn't possibly do that. The perpetrators are dead. Of course, you could bother to do some research and seek out those who were guilty, but you will not bother to because you are in denial.

Well, we all know who signed the order for the deporations. What we do not agree on is that if it constitutes an act of genocide or not. You say it is, I say it's not. It's as simple as that.
However, as I said, this is not a simple matter of who signed the order. Since there was an order, people obeyed it. And not only that, civil disorder was also in place with Armenian gangs killing moslems and moslem gangs killing Armenians.So how exactly are you going to find a perpetrator even if you maintain your position?
You simply can't, but to blame the Turks. The armenians do just that.

Oh, look at the histrionics spouting from you, kilic. I am talking about one genocide that occurred nearly 100 years ago and you are playing the "they blame us for everything" card. Don't be stupid. If it weren't for the Armenian Genocide, WWI and Christianity, there would be nothing Turkish to talk about outside of your country.

And I'd have been glad if it weren't. Like I'd probably simply tell about how nice customs we have and all that. However hayk has to fuck up everything.
In that case we have to defend our name.

Again, easily. That would be a piece of cake. Tell them it is a vaccination and you can kill millions.

It's possible to cheat a jew, however it's impossible to cheat an armenian.
Vaccination. I don't find that believable. Like you could probably do that with some kids or so, however you have to have a steady supply of that shit, and why really bother actually packing them into trains if you're going to vaccine them to death anyways?
It really sounds more and more unbelievable to me each and every passing minute.

Apparently, you wouldn't know bullshit if someone rubbed your face in it. Again, that would be easy. Again, shooting that many people would be less believable. That would be more than one million rounds. That is fucking expensive, especially during a time of war. Either you think the Ottoman government was stupid enough to waste valuable resources or you really do not bother to read.

Well, that's the point. If the Ottoman army was really so keen on preserving resources, they would simply pack them on trains and ship them off to somewhere else where they won't be a bother.
And that's what the fuck they did....

Yes, they do. Again, you really should have gone with that history degree.

If I were, I'd probably have access to the archives that would disprove this unbelievably retarted bullshit.
Thankfully we have quite competent historians who refute the so-called genocide and doesn't afraid of anything.

How the hell am I supposed to know the precise numbers, kilic. It could have been ten. It is one of several methods that were used. Don't worry, your favored bullets and beatings were on the list as well.

Several methods and all. I think the methods that resulted into armenian deaths were these:
civil war
disease
hunger

You are naive.

Really. Like you can actually kill 10.000 people by drowning?
Within the arid landscape of anatolia? Or do you think that they dropped them in the lake of Van? Really, I have not seen even a single piece of evidence that really revealed a modus operandi that relates to the so-called genocide, and nothing that substitutes a "kill them all!!!111" berzerkk order.

The U.S. had a tenuous link to the Allied Forces of World War I, at best. They were not even part of the Allies during World War I. Seriously, dude, READ.

They were, however they did not see much of a combat.

The U.S. did that? Didn't you just say Wilson did that? People, kilic, not countries. The U.S. witnessed the atrocities in your country. They were not involved apart from to share their accounts.

And Woodrow Wilson was the president of the united States. And he proposed an armenian mandate in eastern anatolia, and the armenians readily agreed. Thankfully, their plan was cut short.

That doesn't show shit, kilic, even if it were entirely accurate.

So how do you propose that the courts declared the Turkish war of independence as a " traitor movement"?
A movement that tried to stop this treaty(of Sevres) from destroying our nation? Like I don't even want to think of the case in which we didn't succeed...Germany accepted the treaty and it's horrible conditionalities, and gave rise to Hitler. I'm sure we would have had someone similar who would probably make everyone's genocide dreams come true.

Yeah, basically meaning that the empire that committed those atrocities no longer exists, yet you cling to them like a baby looking for solace in her mother's skirts. Be an individual and you will garner respect. Be a puppet for a long dead empire and you will garner pity.

I do not cling do them, however I do respect them as a part of our glorious days. Even though those days too were hard for the Turks, as we were treated as lowlifes in our own country, even though Europe knew our country by the name of the Turk, not by the name of Osman.
That gives me comfort.

Really? How come I barely ever hear about your country outside of history books?

You probably don't read to many news about Turkey. Whenever Turkey is the case, our enemies, in this case, terrorists/separatists are being called "guerillas" to "rebels" to anything but terrorists, even though they have not only targeted our army personel, but our civillians aswell.
And whenever we make an incursion into Iraq to pursue terrorists, a big fuss is made that we're invading north iraq, and news agencies are always quick to make the PKK's attacks seem more legitimate.

The problem is that you have racial biases in your country. You do not want your country for the people who live in it. You want to kick out everyone who isn't part of your conceived elite, even if it means evacuating people who have lived there since they were born simply because of their race. That is not a dignified position.

Racial bias? There surely is. But it's not directed towards the minorities, it's directed towards the Turkish majority, of which I'm part of.
I want a country that stays true to it's name. Türkiye. This name comes from the italian Turchia, which in turn comes from Turchmenia, "land of the Turkmen". This is how it was conceived, just like how Germany is a country for Germans, hence the name.

Yeah, it makes sense for them to do that, given that they were fucking citizens of what is now Turkey. So, forcing them to die, leave or both is part of the issue. At any rate, dramatical is not a word and they do not have to be dramatic. Like I said, the photos of the dead are real. Who they are with is not important.

Who were "citizens". The armenians? Sure, and they got the same treatment as any other citizen that caused unrest.
Armenians were deported or "exiled" the name that we use for it. It suits it, since my ancestors were also exiled from Konya-Karaman to the Balkans, for picking the wrong side during the Ottoman-Karamanoğlu feud.
This is an ageold Turkish tradition. The fact that the armenians were only subject to it once whereas we Turks were constant subjects to it was due to our unruly nature, however that was not to actually stab the Sultan in the gut, but to object to taxes and levies. The armenians rebelled with no real reason but the ones they shared with the Balkan peeps. The only difference is that they failed.
Besides, photos could have been taken from practically anywhere. They still doesn't give you any clues about the nature of the deportations, nor the numbers.

They are simply a propaganda tool, nothing more...I could show you similar pictures taken at Xocaly Karabagh, of dead Turks, and maintain the notion that it was a genocide wheras it's not...

Kilic, "rounding up their asses" should have included only militia. I stand by what I said. A genocide has nothing to do with militia. It is not armed combatants who were killed that are the issue. It is the children, unarmed men and unarmed women that I, and the world population in general, take umbrage to.

Should have only included militia. Yes, that certainly is as easy as you said it. But it isn't. The armenians were a threat..They were collaborating with the russians. People and the army fought off those that they could.
The rest were exiled to somewhere else so that they couldn't cause anymore trouble. The fact that they were unarmed did not change the fact, since this is the way you deal with rebellions. You do not relatiate, simply try to fend off the bandits, but once you kill one, another one takes it's place. The only reason to deal with that is to take them all and exile them to a place where it won't even matter.

Yes, children are so good at military collaborations. Fuck, you are dense.

Their father's however were. What did you suggest? Like we should have taken and fed them while their fathers were out on the mountains shooting at our soldiers and killing off our villagers?
Deportation was the only critical measure that could be taken.

Define many. The majority of historians in the world disagree with you.

So let them come and let's resolve this in an international discussion with historians debating both sides.
We are always open to debate. The others are not.

No one is censored. I am sure they are just laughed out of most discussions.

They certainly are not. In fact, people take this shit quite seriously.
But they only respond with the same "you are evil because you deny genocide hurr durr" rather than actually trying to refute any points that they make.

Why would they want to talk about it with Turkey? You are denying an event that robbed many of them of their true ancestors, not perceived prideful ancestors that were likely of no relation.

If they don't want to talk, I suggest they better not complain about the hardships of being under blockade.
They don't want to talk about anything at all. Karabagh, out of the question, armenian question, no way. But they are so keen about seeing a few drops of that Azerbaijani oil, and have so long cursed at us because we trolled them by making the Bakü-Ceyhan pipeline go around Armenia through Georgia.

Actually, 43 out of 50 states believe the Armenians. The rest, if I remember correctly, have simply failed to "pick a side," as it were. I do not know why you think our government has "your backs." You are incorrect.

And? Your government will not recognize this so-called genocide. Even if all 50 states indiviually accept it.
Well, if it does, it's going to have serious drawbacks, too.

Turkey would be stupid to do that.

Why would be that?
Are we not going to demand that our name be cleared?

---

The one that set me off actually made it to the racial slur database. Armo. His creative (and repetitive) use of the russian/polish term bydlo (low class people, animals) in service of smearing entire ethnic groups is another frontrunner. Look at that Mehm, this whitey spent so much time in your neck of the woods he knows exactly when you're being a giant douche.

By the by, I can "rage" because genocide deserves it. I don't have to be Armenian to give a shit about Armenians and people like you who take every opportunity to treat them and speak about them as though they were sub-human. Fun fact, there are Armenian blue helmets serving as attachments to the Greek peacekeeping force in Kosovo, where I spent a considerable amount of my late teens and early twenties before all hell broke loose in those lovely middle eastern shitholes we're finally getting out of. Maybe I can't stand for your shit out of respect for people who did their damndest to keep my happy ass from walking into a fucking minefield buddy. That's warrior culture, stick up for your fellow soldiers, not something you'd know anything about is it. You're an armchair hero.

Well, where exactly have I maintained the view that they were subhumans at all? Besides, armo isn't really "slur" per se, it's not even a word that we use in Turkish, because the word armenian actually translates as "ermeni" to Turkish, so it's hardly some Turkish slur against armos.
For bydlo, better check here to learn the meaning for which I'm using it:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bydlo
besides, it's an in-joke in an imageboard in which I frequently post.

From all the unnecessary rage that you somewhat piled together to make a post, I understood only one thing.
You just don't want to think about the possibility of this so-called genocide being untrue. I don't know why you're refusing to think clearly for even one second, but it just might be due to your pro-armenian bias that you clearly admitted above. Well, whatever floats your boat.
I did not expect to change your views on the subject, and I'm sure that you didn't expect for my views to change.
But I still don't understand why it is so hard for you to believe that I stand by my people. These are my fellow men. If you see yourself a fellow in the armenian, you take him for a fellow. I see fellows amongst my own people, and stand up for them.