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Maximizing Moral Virtue
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue
(June 24, 2022 at 1:01 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(June 24, 2022 at 11:17 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: Well, if something must be a certain way solely because one person (God) commands it, then it would need to have very good credibility that it really came from him. This way it might have come from him but was changed through centuries of oral re-telling or just completely made up.
Possessing certainty that a message originates with you answers the question of who the message came from - but not whether the message is of moral import or even further.... is, in fact, moral.  


Quote:But this is not what believers in the so-called objective morality from the Bible claim. They claim that something is good or bad simply because God says it is that way, and not if it makes sense or not.
That would be a subjective morality, not objective morality, assuming it was morality at all.  This is one of the easiest beliefs to discard when discussing whether or not there are realist ethics to maximize - because you can simply concede that when you use the term morality you are not referring to what a subject may or may not say or feel or command - but what is or is not good or bad about that thing itself.  If they like they can keep the word morality and you can use fleflarp - it really doesn't matter what terms are used.  You can concede that maximizing compliance with subjective normative statements is a thing, but not the thing you're talking about when considering maximizing moral virtue.  Or you can say that maximizing moral virtue is a thing, but not what you're talking about when considering fleflarp virtue.

Ultimately, I think you'll find that the faithful are just as compelled to reach into the fleflarp column as anyone else. That good is what god commands, and what god commands is good - are not interchangeable statements. It may be for their lack of rhetorical skill or conceptual grounding (or yours, or both) that the former seems like the latter. I think this is one where the rough shape of the misperception on either end has a good sociological explanation. There are people who believe - first, that their god is wholly good. Those people appear to weight fealty as-a-virtue higher than people who do not hold such a belief. With these two beliefs in mind, and confronted with a difficult to reconcile text - the notion that whatever god commanded is good is an expression of frustration. They don't know how, but they know there must be mitigating circumstances, and to seriously consider otherwise would be disloyal - to boot.

Consider the many..many...many posts on this board from the faithful swirling exactly that drain.

I am not exactly sure what you are trying to say, but when they say "Gay people and gay marriage are bad because God says so in the Bible" they believe that this is an objective morality that is beyond their wishes and decisions.

Now, you could argue that they are deluding themselves for many reasons, one of which is that they choose which God's commandments they will follow either by pick-and-choose method or just mental gymnastics, but that doesn't matter in the point that I am trying to make which is the claim that it comes from God (Bible) when it actually comes from some dubious anonymous people somewhere in the past who related it to us by a very flawed method.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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Messages In This Thread
Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - May 18, 2022 at 5:57 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 18, 2022 at 6:11 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by vulcanlogician - May 20, 2022 at 2:15 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 20, 2022 at 4:05 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Belacqua - May 18, 2022 at 7:25 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by arewethereyet - May 18, 2022 at 2:08 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by brewer - May 18, 2022 at 7:47 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - May 18, 2022 at 8:47 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by brewer - May 18, 2022 at 2:14 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - May 18, 2022 at 3:50 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by brewer - May 18, 2022 at 6:01 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by brewer - May 18, 2022 at 8:05 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by onlinebiker - May 18, 2022 at 8:11 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - May 18, 2022 at 8:35 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 8:51 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by zebo-the-fat - May 18, 2022 at 9:09 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 10:17 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Angrboda - May 18, 2022 at 11:25 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Nay_Sayer - May 18, 2022 at 11:53 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - May 18, 2022 at 12:09 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - May 18, 2022 at 12:14 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 12:57 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - May 18, 2022 at 1:07 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 1:36 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - May 18, 2022 at 1:45 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Neo-Scholastic - May 19, 2022 at 10:17 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 1:59 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - May 18, 2022 at 2:06 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 2:14 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 4:21 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - May 18, 2022 at 4:33 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by arewethereyet - May 18, 2022 at 6:05 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Belacqua - May 18, 2022 at 9:47 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 4:37 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Jehanne - May 18, 2022 at 7:43 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 18, 2022 at 11:19 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - May 19, 2022 at 1:29 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 19, 2022 at 4:19 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - May 19, 2022 at 6:09 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by arewethereyet - May 19, 2022 at 6:15 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - May 19, 2022 at 6:23 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 20, 2022 at 12:52 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - May 22, 2022 at 5:13 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - May 28, 2022 at 10:00 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - June 3, 2022 at 10:21 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - June 4, 2022 at 6:52 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - June 5, 2022 at 6:12 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - June 5, 2022 at 11:12 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 23, 2022 at 12:25 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - May 27, 2022 at 5:47 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - May 28, 2022 at 10:08 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 6:35 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - May 27, 2022 at 9:46 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - May 27, 2022 at 1:36 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - May 28, 2022 at 6:14 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - June 13, 2022 at 11:57 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 10:01 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 10:26 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - May 28, 2022 at 12:17 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Aegon - June 3, 2022 at 11:16 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - June 4, 2022 at 5:49 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Aegon - June 6, 2022 at 10:30 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Alan V - June 6, 2022 at 10:21 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - June 13, 2022 at 12:27 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - June 14, 2022 at 8:58 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 5, 2022 at 6:35 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 5, 2022 at 11:30 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 6, 2022 at 10:39 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Alan V - June 7, 2022 at 6:34 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Architect Of Fate - June 6, 2022 at 10:57 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Architect Of Fate - June 6, 2022 at 11:00 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 11, 2022 at 9:44 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 13, 2022 at 1:14 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 16, 2022 at 7:19 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Belacqua - June 16, 2022 at 8:48 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 16, 2022 at 9:12 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Belacqua - June 16, 2022 at 10:07 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 24, 2022 at 10:25 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Belacqua - June 24, 2022 at 10:57 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 24, 2022 at 11:47 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Belacqua - June 25, 2022 at 12:52 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 25, 2022 at 1:43 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Belacqua - June 25, 2022 at 2:05 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 25, 2022 at 5:36 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - June 14, 2022 at 9:21 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - June 14, 2022 at 11:43 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - June 15, 2022 at 2:57 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Aegon - June 15, 2022 at 9:47 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - June 16, 2022 at 9:53 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 14, 2022 at 11:54 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - June 15, 2022 at 12:50 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 15, 2022 at 1:46 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - June 15, 2022 at 2:19 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - June 16, 2022 at 9:25 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - June 16, 2022 at 10:05 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - June 16, 2022 at 10:28 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - June 16, 2022 at 7:20 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h4ym4n - June 16, 2022 at 8:24 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Aegon - June 22, 2022 at 10:44 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Disagreeable - June 22, 2022 at 11:22 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 16, 2022 at 11:40 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - June 23, 2022 at 3:03 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 23, 2022 at 3:22 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - June 23, 2022 at 3:25 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - June 23, 2022 at 5:59 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 23, 2022 at 1:38 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - June 24, 2022 at 8:56 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Belacqua - June 23, 2022 at 8:09 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 23, 2022 at 8:20 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - June 23, 2022 at 8:53 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 23, 2022 at 9:27 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - June 23, 2022 at 9:37 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 23, 2022 at 10:20 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 24, 2022 at 10:08 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - June 24, 2022 at 11:17 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - June 24, 2022 at 11:40 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 24, 2022 at 1:01 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - June 24, 2022 at 1:44 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 24, 2022 at 1:16 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - June 24, 2022 at 1:36 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - June 24, 2022 at 2:09 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 24, 2022 at 1:39 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - June 24, 2022 at 2:14 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 24, 2022 at 2:25 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 24, 2022 at 2:31 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Architect Of Fate - June 25, 2022 at 2:38 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Architect Of Fate - June 25, 2022 at 2:41 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 25, 2022 at 7:49 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 25, 2022 at 3:31 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 25, 2022 at 4:11 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 25, 2022 at 7:10 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by LinuxGal - December 17, 2022 at 12:50 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2022 at 10:13 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by JC1432 - June 26, 2022 at 11:26 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by downbeatplumb - June 26, 2022 at 2:04 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - June 27, 2022 at 12:34 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - June 27, 2022 at 8:28 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 26, 2022 at 12:08 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 27, 2022 at 7:12 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - June 27, 2022 at 8:35 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - July 19, 2022 at 11:11 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 11:24 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Angrboda - July 19, 2022 at 11:28 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - August 18, 2022 at 9:56 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - August 18, 2022 at 10:00 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2022 at 10:03 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - August 18, 2022 at 8:13 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Aegon - August 19, 2022 at 12:45 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - August 25, 2022 at 6:02 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Astreja - August 25, 2022 at 10:10 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by bennyboy - August 26, 2022 at 9:01 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Aegon - August 30, 2022 at 11:30 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - August 18, 2022 at 11:20 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Nay_Sayer - August 19, 2022 at 1:56 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - August 19, 2022 at 12:00 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - August 25, 2022 at 6:38 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Angrboda - August 26, 2022 at 9:18 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - August 26, 2022 at 9:29 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - August 26, 2022 at 9:31 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - September 1, 2022 at 7:45 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - September 2, 2022 at 2:15 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - September 7, 2022 at 2:16 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - September 7, 2022 at 2:58 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Aegon - September 2, 2022 at 11:54 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - September 2, 2022 at 8:51 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - September 7, 2022 at 2:26 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - September 7, 2022 at 4:13 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - September 17, 2022 at 3:51 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - September 17, 2022 at 4:35 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 17, 2022 at 4:38 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Aegon - September 20, 2022 at 10:10 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - September 17, 2022 at 4:56 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 17, 2022 at 5:07 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - September 17, 2022 at 6:28 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by arewethereyet - September 17, 2022 at 7:28 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Fake Messiah - September 17, 2022 at 7:40 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Pat Mustard - September 19, 2022 at 3:04 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by The Grand Nudger - September 17, 2022 at 8:24 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Silver - September 17, 2022 at 8:30 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 18, 2022 at 5:42 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 19, 2022 at 5:07 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Ahriman - September 19, 2022 at 5:14 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by LadyForCamus - September 19, 2022 at 1:58 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h4ym4n - September 19, 2022 at 7:25 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - September 20, 2022 at 10:06 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h4ym4n - September 21, 2022 at 6:55 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Mister Agenda - September 21, 2022 at 9:50 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Angrboda - September 21, 2022 at 10:45 am
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - September 21, 2022 at 12:23 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by h311inac311 - October 10, 2022 at 12:58 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - October 10, 2022 at 2:09 pm
RE: Maximizing Moral Virtue - by Objectivist - December 17, 2022 at 10:36 pm

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