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Moral Oughts
#1
Moral Oughts
This question is primarily reserved for Atheists who subscribe to Moral Realism.

You drop your wallet, I’m tempted to keep it/steal it to buy myself an Xbox.

A moral realist, at least in regards to the scenario above would agree, that stealing is wrong, and that this is an objective truth.

So if a realist came up to me, and said stealing is wrong, I can understand that they are stating a fact, an objective truth in doing so.

Now if the realist says to me that I ought not steal, are they also expressing an objective truth? Or is it more of a subjective goal than an objective truth?

If I said no it’s not wrong to steal, according to moral realism, I’d be stating something factually incorrect, like stating the earth is flat.

Now if i said I reject the statement that I ought not steal, am I rejecting a fact, an objective truth here? Or just some subjective goal you and others want me to follow?
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#2
RE: Moral Oughts
I don't think a moral realist would say that you 'ought' not to steal.  That would make him a moral relativist.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#3
RE: Moral Oughts
That would depend on their evaluative premise.

Stealing is wrong.
You shouldn’t do wrong
Therefore you shouldn’t steal

follows, so it’s at least a candidate for objective truth.

But

Stealing is wrong
Sometimes you should do wrong
Therefore you shouldn’t steal

Doesn’t follow, and so....categorically, is not a candidate for an objective truth.

Most moral disagreement happens at the level of evaluative premises, with more sophisticated premises capable of supporting ( and handling) a wider range of purported moral truths and moral scenarios.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#4
RE: Moral Oughts
(August 1, 2019 at 11:49 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: That would depend on their evaluative premise.

Stealing is wrong.
You shouldn’t do wrong
Therefore you shouldn’t steal

follows, so it’s at least a candidate for objective truth.

But

Stealing is wrong
Sometimes you should do wrong
Therefore you shouldn’t steal

Doesn’t follow, and so....categorically, is not a candidate for an objective truth.

Most moral disagreement happens at the level of evaluative premises, with more sophisticated premises capable of supporting ( and handling) a wider range of purported moral truths and moral scenarios.

So an ought is derived via a subjective goal?

Ie if my goal is to buy an Xbox, then I ought to steal. If my goal is to not do something wrong than I ought not steal.

If i don’t have a goal to avoid doing wrong, than I should do whatever I want.
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#5
RE: Moral Oughts
They can be, sure, but that doesn’t mean that they all are.

Sort of like how you can make a pie with sugar or Splenda.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#6
RE: Moral Oughts
Every once in a while a thief gets shot in the act.


That alone ahould give ya reason enough to not do it...
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#7
RE: Moral Oughts
(August 1, 2019 at 11:56 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: They can be, sure, but that doesn’t mean that they all are.

Sort of like how you can make a pie with sugar or Splenda

Okay some may be some may not be.

How about I ought not do wrong, or I ought not steal, is that a subjective goal? How about for you? Do you believe you ought not steal? If so, Is this a personal/subjective goal of yours? To avoid doing wrong things.

Meaning that it might apply to you, who personally subscribe to it, but not to someone like me who doesn’t personally subscribe to it?
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#8
RE: Moral Oughts
(August 1, 2019 at 12:02 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Every once in a while a thief gets shot in the act.


That alone ahould give ya reason enough to not do it...

Rational self interest. That’s a pretty common realist premise, for sure.

(August 1, 2019 at 12:02 pm)Acrobat Wrote:
(August 1, 2019 at 11:56 am)Gae Bolga Wrote: They can be, sure, but that doesn’t mean that they all are.

Sort of like how you can make a pie with sugar or Splenda

Okay some may be some may not be.

How about I ought not do wrong, or I ought not steal, is that a subjective goal? How about for you? Do you believe you ought not steal? If so, Is this a personal/subjective goal of yours? To avoid doing wrong things.

Meaning that it might apply to you, who personally subscribe to it, but not to someone like me who doesn’t personally subscribe to it?
No, none of those are my evaluative premises. I’m a moral realist, not a moral absolutist.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#9
RE: Moral Oughts
(August 1, 2019 at 12:02 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Every once in a while a thief gets shot in the act.


That alone ahould give ya reason enough to not do it...

Everyone’s in awhile people get in car accidents and die, but that’s no reason to take the bus.

We can all gauge the risk and their likelihood’s. The likelihood of getting shot or even caught for keeping someone dropped wallet is extremely low, to the point where it’s not existent.
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#10
RE: Moral Oughts
(August 1, 2019 at 12:04 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:
(August 1, 2019 at 12:02 pm)onlinebiker Wrote: Every once in a while a thief gets shot in the act.


That alone ahould give ya reason enough to not do it...

Rational self interest.  That’s a pretty common realist premise, for sure.

Yup.

I like hooking corners at high speed with my 93 SC2 - which handles like a go- cart.

But - ya can get tickets for speeding.

I like my cheap insurance - so I don't do it. ( much).
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