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Credible/Honest Apologetics?
#66
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
(July 13, 2022 at 10:59 am)Simon Moon Wrote: The only first principles an atheist has to accept, is that: the outside world exists, and other minds exist, and we are not a brain in a vat being fed false information. But again, I don't think this is a faith based position, since I have evidence. 

I don't think any of those things are falsifiable. 

I mean, any evidence you have that you're NOT in the matrix could just be dropped in by the people who run the matrix. 

Like a lot of unfalsifiable things, there is no good reason to believe it. (I certainly don't believe we're in the matrix.) But that doesn't mean it's been falsified. 

Is it a first principle for you that you should believe things based on evidence? That seems like a reasonable first principle to me, but not one that could be proved with evidence. Because to accept the evidence, you'd first have to accept the principle. 

Is it a first principle that falsifiable claims are superior to non-falsifiable claims? Apparently not, since the three you list are not falsifiable. But science-type people often say this. So for them it may constitute a first principle. When they say there is no evidence for God, they are relying on a principle about what good evidence will look like: science-type falsifiable evidence, not personal unfalsifiable experience.

Is it a first principle that empirical evidence, interpreted in the light of current scientific theory, is better than revelation? This again seems unprovable and unfalsifiable, but lots of atheists hold to it. How could you falsify the idea that some revelation is true?

In addition, to be an atheist, you have to accept a number of other propositions:

1) religious claims have not been proven. 
2) the world is explicable, more or less, without positing God or other religious elements. 
3) that religious claims are "unevidenced stuff" that religious people add.

These propositions may be very reasonable, but they are certainly things that atheists believe. If "I believe it" means "I hold it to be true," then these are beliefs that you must have in order to be an atheist.
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Messages In This Thread
Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - May 25, 2022 at 11:19 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - May 25, 2022 at 11:54 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - May 27, 2022 at 11:49 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - May 25, 2022 at 1:15 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - May 27, 2022 at 11:54 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - May 25, 2022 at 1:27 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - May 25, 2022 at 7:36 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Valkyrie - May 25, 2022 at 6:15 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - May 25, 2022 at 6:36 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Valkyrie - May 25, 2022 at 8:16 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - May 25, 2022 at 9:19 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Valkyrie - May 26, 2022 at 5:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - May 26, 2022 at 12:25 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - May 27, 2022 at 12:22 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - May 27, 2022 at 12:12 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by JP Bradt - August 5, 2022 at 11:12 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - August 5, 2022 at 12:01 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - August 5, 2022 at 1:27 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - May 26, 2022 at 12:33 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 7:41 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 12:22 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Brian37 - May 27, 2022 at 1:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - May 27, 2022 at 1:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 2:19 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Ranjr - May 27, 2022 at 2:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - May 28, 2022 at 11:47 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - June 6, 2022 at 7:15 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - June 8, 2022 at 11:11 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - June 8, 2022 at 11:59 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by h311inac311 - June 16, 2022 at 8:07 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - June 16, 2022 at 8:52 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - June 17, 2022 at 12:25 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - June 21, 2022 at 3:16 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 12, 2022 at 5:22 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 12, 2022 at 8:04 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 12, 2022 at 11:52 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 13, 2022 at 6:52 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 13, 2022 at 10:59 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 14, 2022 at 5:17 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 14, 2022 at 12:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 14, 2022 at 1:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 4:06 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 14, 2022 at 7:55 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - July 14, 2022 at 8:46 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 10:30 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 14, 2022 at 5:56 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 14, 2022 at 6:55 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 18, 2022 at 4:34 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 19, 2022 at 2:50 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 19, 2022 at 11:25 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 20, 2022 at 12:47 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by emjay - July 20, 2022 at 6:18 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 20, 2022 at 7:20 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - June 17, 2022 at 2:02 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Data - June 20, 2022 at 3:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - June 21, 2022 at 3:18 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Data - June 21, 2022 at 8:37 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - June 21, 2022 at 7:32 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Data - June 21, 2022 at 8:39 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - June 22, 2022 at 2:35 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Data - June 20, 2022 at 3:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - June 20, 2022 at 3:31 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 7, 2022 at 11:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by GrandizerII - July 8, 2022 at 3:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 8, 2022 at 4:21 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 8, 2022 at 10:38 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 8, 2022 at 10:53 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 3:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 8, 2022 at 4:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 4:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 8, 2022 at 5:27 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 4:53 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 6:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 6:25 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 8, 2022 at 11:17 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 9, 2022 at 3:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - July 10, 2022 at 2:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - July 10, 2022 at 2:50 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 13, 2022 at 9:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 13, 2022 at 9:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 13, 2022 at 10:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 14, 2022 at 12:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 14, 2022 at 8:18 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 14, 2022 at 12:11 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 14, 2022 at 12:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 14, 2022 at 7:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 7:55 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 15, 2022 at 11:10 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 15, 2022 at 11:32 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 6:48 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2022 at 10:20 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 12:17 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2022 at 6:04 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2022 at 7:56 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 7:19 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 19, 2022 at 11:20 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 19, 2022 at 11:25 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 19, 2022 at 11:39 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 19, 2022 at 11:46 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2022 at 11:52 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 20, 2022 at 6:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 20, 2022 at 6:47 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 20, 2022 at 4:43 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 19, 2022 at 12:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 19, 2022 at 11:29 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 19, 2022 at 11:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 11:36 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 19, 2022 at 11:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 19, 2022 at 11:55 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 20, 2022 at 5:00 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2022 at 6:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 11:46 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 11:50 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 20, 2022 at 12:00 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 20, 2022 at 12:04 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2022 at 12:09 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 12:16 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 20, 2022 at 7:02 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 12:56 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 7:17 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 12:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 4:59 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 20, 2022 at 6:50 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2022 at 7:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 21, 2022 at 1:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 22, 2022 at 12:21 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 22, 2022 at 12:30 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 22, 2022 at 3:58 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 25, 2022 at 9:21 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2022 at 9:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 25, 2022 at 5:54 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 20, 2022 at 9:10 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 21, 2022 at 10:52 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 21, 2022 at 11:02 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 21, 2022 at 12:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 21, 2022 at 11:22 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2022 at 12:36 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2022 at 1:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 21, 2022 at 2:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 22, 2022 at 11:50 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 22, 2022 at 3:44 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2022 at 3:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 21, 2022 at 3:53 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 22, 2022 at 12:28 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 22, 2022 at 4:11 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 23, 2022 at 11:04 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2022 at 9:22 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 25, 2022 at 5:57 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 25, 2022 at 9:31 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2022 at 10:27 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2022 at 10:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 25, 2022 at 10:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 25, 2022 at 11:09 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - July 28, 2022 at 2:54 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 26, 2022 at 12:23 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 6:07 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 26, 2022 at 6:06 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 28, 2022 at 3:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 28, 2022 at 3:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - July 28, 2022 at 4:05 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - August 5, 2022 at 9:50 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - August 7, 2022 at 6:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - August 7, 2022 at 6:44 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 7, 2022 at 9:05 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2022 at 7:37 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 8:38 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2022 at 9:04 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 9:09 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2022 at 6:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 26, 2022 at 8:53 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 9:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 27, 2022 at 2:50 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 4:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by HappySkeptic - July 27, 2022 at 4:55 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 5:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 6:46 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2022 at 9:13 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by rlp21858 - July 27, 2022 at 7:52 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2022 at 3:12 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2022 at 4:44 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2022 at 5:19 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 5:57 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 27, 2022 at 8:38 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 9:08 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 27, 2022 at 9:31 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 9:45 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - July 27, 2022 at 10:01 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 27, 2022 at 6:30 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 28, 2022 at 4:01 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 28, 2022 at 4:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by rlp21858 - August 4, 2022 at 12:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 5, 2022 at 10:35 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by JP Bradt - August 5, 2022 at 10:54 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 5, 2022 at 1:33 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - August 7, 2022 at 6:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - August 7, 2022 at 6:39 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - August 7, 2022 at 10:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 7, 2022 at 6:32 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 7, 2022 at 7:04 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 7, 2022 at 9:19 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 7, 2022 at 9:22 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Silver - August 7, 2022 at 9:23 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - August 8, 2022 at 9:50 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - August 8, 2022 at 10:04 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 8, 2022 at 3:02 pm

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