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Credible/Honest Apologetics?
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics?
(July 20, 2022 at 7:14 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Kalam is a fallacious argument. It is invalid in form,

You are a joke. Professional philosophers write about this argument for a living, and they know how to make an argument that is valid in form. The Kalam is obviously valid, in the sense that if the premises are true, the conclusion is necessarily true. If you don't see that, I will go as far as saying you have comprehension issues.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you're confusing validity and soundness, because soundness is the central issue, not validity. Otherwise, you don't know what you're talking about.

(July 20, 2022 at 7:14 pm)Simon Moon Wrote: Not to mention, even if it were valid and sound, it still would not demonstrate a god exists.

1. Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
2. The universe began to exist.
Conclusion: Therefore, the universe has a cause.

God does not appear in either premise, nor the conclusion.

Therefore, Kalam is not an argument for the existence of a god, it is an argument for the existence of a cause for the universe.

There is of course the additional work of showing that the cause of the universe is identical to the God of classical theism, and the Kalam is a very important step towards this conclusion. And so it merits full consideration.

(July 21, 2022 at 10:52 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: To be clear, I am a gnostic atheist regarding a God who is both omniscient and omnipotent, as I believe those attributes contradict each other and any God that is supposed to have them is a married bachelor. An omnipotent being can do anything, an omniscient being can only do what it always knew it was going to do. 

The statement " can only do what it always knew it was going to do" is not problematic, and doesn't entail a contradiction with omnipotence, because God doesn't change His intention (because he's omniscient, we only change our mind when we are presented with new information/see the information from a new perspective, but God always has full information and knows all possible perspectives, so he never needs to change his decisions).
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Messages In This Thread
Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - May 25, 2022 at 11:19 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - May 25, 2022 at 11:54 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - May 27, 2022 at 11:49 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - May 25, 2022 at 1:15 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - May 27, 2022 at 11:54 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - May 25, 2022 at 1:27 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - May 25, 2022 at 7:36 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Valkyrie - May 25, 2022 at 6:15 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - May 25, 2022 at 6:36 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Valkyrie - May 25, 2022 at 8:16 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - May 25, 2022 at 9:19 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Valkyrie - May 26, 2022 at 5:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - May 26, 2022 at 12:25 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - May 27, 2022 at 12:22 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - May 27, 2022 at 12:12 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by JP Bradt - August 5, 2022 at 11:12 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - August 5, 2022 at 12:01 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - August 5, 2022 at 1:27 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - May 26, 2022 at 12:33 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 7:41 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 12:22 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Brian37 - May 27, 2022 at 1:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - May 27, 2022 at 1:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - May 27, 2022 at 2:19 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Ranjr - May 27, 2022 at 2:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - May 28, 2022 at 11:47 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - June 6, 2022 at 7:15 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - June 8, 2022 at 11:11 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - June 8, 2022 at 11:59 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by h311inac311 - June 16, 2022 at 8:07 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - June 16, 2022 at 8:52 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - June 17, 2022 at 12:25 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - June 21, 2022 at 3:16 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 12, 2022 at 5:22 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 12, 2022 at 8:04 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 12, 2022 at 11:52 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 13, 2022 at 6:52 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 13, 2022 at 10:59 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 14, 2022 at 5:17 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 14, 2022 at 12:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 14, 2022 at 1:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 4:06 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 14, 2022 at 7:55 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - July 14, 2022 at 8:46 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 10:30 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 14, 2022 at 5:56 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 14, 2022 at 6:55 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 18, 2022 at 4:34 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 19, 2022 at 2:50 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 19, 2022 at 11:25 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 20, 2022 at 12:47 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by emjay - July 20, 2022 at 6:18 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Belacqua - July 20, 2022 at 7:20 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - June 17, 2022 at 2:02 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Data - June 20, 2022 at 3:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - June 21, 2022 at 3:18 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Data - June 21, 2022 at 8:37 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - June 21, 2022 at 7:32 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Data - June 21, 2022 at 8:39 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - June 22, 2022 at 2:35 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Data - June 20, 2022 at 3:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - June 20, 2022 at 3:31 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 7, 2022 at 11:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by GrandizerII - July 8, 2022 at 3:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 8, 2022 at 4:21 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 8, 2022 at 10:38 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 8, 2022 at 10:53 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 3:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 8, 2022 at 4:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 4:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 8, 2022 at 5:27 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 4:53 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 6:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 8, 2022 at 6:25 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 8, 2022 at 11:17 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 9, 2022 at 3:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - July 10, 2022 at 2:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - July 10, 2022 at 2:50 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 13, 2022 at 9:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 13, 2022 at 9:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 13, 2022 at 10:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 14, 2022 at 12:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 14, 2022 at 8:18 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 14, 2022 at 12:11 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 14, 2022 at 12:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 14, 2022 at 7:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 7:55 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 15, 2022 at 11:10 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 15, 2022 at 11:32 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 6:48 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2022 at 10:20 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 14, 2022 at 12:17 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 14, 2022 at 6:04 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 18, 2022 at 7:56 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 7:19 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 19, 2022 at 11:20 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 19, 2022 at 11:25 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 19, 2022 at 11:39 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 19, 2022 at 11:46 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2022 at 11:52 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 20, 2022 at 6:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 20, 2022 at 6:47 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 20, 2022 at 4:43 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 19, 2022 at 12:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 19, 2022 at 11:29 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 19, 2022 at 11:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 11:36 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 19, 2022 at 11:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 19, 2022 at 11:55 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 20, 2022 at 5:00 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2022 at 6:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 11:46 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 19, 2022 at 11:50 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 20, 2022 at 12:00 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 20, 2022 at 12:04 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2022 at 12:09 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 12:16 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 20, 2022 at 7:02 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 12:56 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 7:17 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 12:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 20, 2022 at 4:59 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 20, 2022 at 6:50 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 20, 2022 at 7:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 21, 2022 at 1:40 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 22, 2022 at 12:21 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 22, 2022 at 12:30 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 22, 2022 at 3:58 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 25, 2022 at 9:21 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2022 at 9:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 25, 2022 at 5:54 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 20, 2022 at 9:10 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - July 21, 2022 at 10:52 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by TheJefe817 - July 21, 2022 at 11:02 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 21, 2022 at 12:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 21, 2022 at 11:22 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2022 at 12:36 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2022 at 1:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 21, 2022 at 2:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 22, 2022 at 11:50 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 22, 2022 at 3:44 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 21, 2022 at 3:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 21, 2022 at 3:53 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 22, 2022 at 12:28 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 22, 2022 at 4:11 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 23, 2022 at 11:04 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2022 at 9:22 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 25, 2022 at 5:57 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 25, 2022 at 9:31 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 25, 2022 at 10:27 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 25, 2022 at 10:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 25, 2022 at 10:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 25, 2022 at 11:09 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Pat Mustard - July 28, 2022 at 2:54 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 26, 2022 at 12:23 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 6:07 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Simon Moon - July 26, 2022 at 6:06 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - July 28, 2022 at 3:41 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 28, 2022 at 3:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Fake Messiah - July 28, 2022 at 4:05 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - August 5, 2022 at 9:50 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - August 7, 2022 at 6:24 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - August 7, 2022 at 6:44 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - August 7, 2022 at 9:05 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2022 at 7:37 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 8:38 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2022 at 9:04 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 9:09 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2022 at 6:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 26, 2022 at 8:53 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 9:18 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 27, 2022 at 2:50 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 4:37 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by HappySkeptic - July 27, 2022 at 4:55 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 5:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 26, 2022 at 6:46 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 26, 2022 at 9:13 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by rlp21858 - July 27, 2022 at 7:52 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2022 at 3:12 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2022 at 4:44 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 27, 2022 at 5:19 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 5:57 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 27, 2022 at 8:38 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 9:08 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Neo-Scholastic - July 27, 2022 at 9:31 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 27, 2022 at 9:45 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - July 27, 2022 at 10:01 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Angrboda - July 27, 2022 at 6:30 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - July 28, 2022 at 4:01 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - July 28, 2022 at 4:48 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by rlp21858 - August 4, 2022 at 12:49 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 5, 2022 at 10:35 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by JP Bradt - August 5, 2022 at 10:54 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 5, 2022 at 1:33 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - August 7, 2022 at 6:26 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by R00tKiT - August 7, 2022 at 6:39 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by arewethereyet - August 7, 2022 at 10:14 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 7, 2022 at 6:32 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 7, 2022 at 7:04 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 7, 2022 at 9:19 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 7, 2022 at 9:22 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Silver - August 7, 2022 at 9:23 pm
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Mister Agenda - August 8, 2022 at 9:50 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by Jehanne - August 8, 2022 at 10:04 am
RE: Credible/Honest Apologetics? - by The Grand Nudger - August 8, 2022 at 3:02 pm

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