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The pre-failure of apologetic arguments
#11
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments
(December 5, 2011 at 2:57 pm)LastPoet Wrote: In any case it doesn't point to any god, only to a cause.
This is certainly true of the syllogism (1)-(3). To be fair to Craig, we should mention that he then gives another argument for why one should believe that the cause is God, but I think that it fails. He basically says that there are only two possible things that could cause the universe to begin to exist: abstract objects, or an unembodied mind. And there are a whole host of problems with this argument - the main one for me would be that saying that God is an "unembodied mind" is just woeful theology (one might say 'the mind of God' but never 'the mind that is God'). But also claiming that unembodied minds exist begs a huge question against a whole host of mind-body theories.

LastPoet Wrote:And it begs the question, when assigning that cause to god and everything has a cause what caused god?
This is a bit of a bogus objection, as nowhere in the argument does Craig say "everything has a cause" (indeed, noone from the Western canon of philosophy - Plato, Aristotle, Plotinus, Aquinas - noone has said "everything has a cause" as part of a cosmological argument).

Quote:Is god the only possible way for the universe to begin? That's alot to provide evidence...
This is a better objection, and is the third objection that I would have to his argument that God is the cause. I would probably phrase it something like this: Craig needs to give an argument why the cause must either be God by necessity, or give an argument why the cause is most probably God. The second is pretty difficult to formulate given that we simply don't know anything about the space of possible causes of the universe. For the first, there may well be some intriguing line of argument but I haven't come across it yet, and Craig's attempt (which just looks like a false dichotomy) is very unconvincing.

(December 5, 2011 at 3:02 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: Indeed god is the least likely of the pre-big bang theories that i 've heard.
I'd be interested to see how you would even begin to formulate an argument for that. As I said above, I don't think we know enough about the space of possibilities to even get started.
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Messages In This Thread
The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by DeistPaladin - December 5, 2011 at 10:25 am
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by KichigaiNeko - December 5, 2011 at 10:29 am
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Minimalist - December 5, 2011 at 12:23 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Matthaῖos - December 5, 2011 at 12:44 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Matthaῖos - December 5, 2011 at 7:22 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by DeistPaladin - December 5, 2011 at 10:04 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by lucent - December 5, 2011 at 11:21 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Minimalist - December 5, 2011 at 1:03 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Matthaῖos - December 5, 2011 at 1:07 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by LastPoet - December 5, 2011 at 2:57 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Matthaῖos - December 5, 2011 at 3:45 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Ace Otana - December 5, 2011 at 3:13 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by lucent - December 5, 2011 at 5:25 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Jackalope - December 5, 2011 at 6:17 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by lucent - December 5, 2011 at 6:40 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by lucent - December 5, 2011 at 8:04 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Minimalist - December 5, 2011 at 10:20 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by DeistPaladin - December 5, 2011 at 11:43 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by lucent - December 5, 2011 at 11:52 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Minimalist - December 5, 2011 at 11:57 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by frankiej - December 6, 2011 at 10:07 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by DeistPaladin - December 6, 2011 at 10:41 pm
RE: The pre-failure of apologetic arguments - by Perhaps - December 18, 2011 at 2:32 am

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