Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 3:16 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
#1
Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
http://infidels.org/library/modern/micha...n/gap.html
Quote:But however a First Cause is conceived, it need not be the theistic God: all of these conclusions are compatible with deism and with an impersonal God.
Quote:The rejection of Darwinian evolution is compatible with deism, polytheism, and a finite God view.
I found that to be the most interesting part of his essay because it undermines the fundies' motivation for anti-evolution.



Hitchens and others have made this point many times and I think this point can't be stressed enough. The best arguments for a god do not lead to religious theism at all.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot

We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
Reply
#2
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
You are correct that the First Cause 'only' establishes a deistic or impersonal God. Additional arguments, like Aquinas's Fifth way flesh out the rest.
Reply
#3
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
Not really. Fifth way just shows a God that designed the universe for some goal. You would have to argue that the sources for the Bible are highly likely to be reliable, which is a fool's errand. You can't just assume the bible as highly reliable merely because they are all we got on the subject of Jesus. Ancient anecdotal evidence is weak. But even if for argument's sake a secular theist assumes Christ was resurrected by God it can't just be assume the Christian God did it since another God, or Goddess for that matter, could have done it, perhaps for a joke. If we compare secular theism to religious theism occam's razor would narrow it down to secular theism. Why? Because religious theism is a large complex of many claims that all require proof and/or evidence while secular theism is based on fewer claims and requires less argument to defend. A secular theist could not have to interpret and defend religious doctrine while the religious do.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot

We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
Reply
#4
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
I totally agree. Deism, or non-religious theism are by far the most rational forms of theism. If you feel that there is some sort of God, then going beyond that to "know" all this stuff about it based on books and oral myths is just storytelling. I suppose people want a god they can relate to, so they give it a human character and a backstory. It would be great if people did not feel the need to do this, and to presume to speak for the intentions of this intelligence, if it exists (or did exist).

And for sure, this type of theism is much easier to defend than religious claims, which just throw non sequiturs everywhere and rely on "faith" (accepting things as true based on no evidence). It is also far less harmful.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply
#5
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
To be clearer, I'm not saying the Christian God is complex, I'm saying the group of claims which makes up Christian theism are many. I want to bite any "b-b-ut God is simple!" objection to occam's razor in the butt before anyone replies with one. I'm not talking about God I'm talking about sets of propositions. Occam's razor is to be applied to propositions just like how logic applies to propositions and not cats.
Cat
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot

We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
Reply
#6
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
(February 24, 2015 at 9:10 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: You are correct that the First Cause 'only' establishes a deistic or impersonal God. Additional arguments, like Aquinas's Fifth way flesh out the rest.

I disagree that the First Cause establishes some sentient divine being. Lots of other possibilities to consider.
Reply
#7
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
(February 24, 2015 at 9:10 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: You are correct that the First Cause 'only' establishes a deistic or impersonal God. Additional arguments, like Aquinas's Fifth way flesh out the rest.

No it doesn't. The first cause "argument" is absolutely meaningless. It establishes the obvious, namely the universe
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply
#8
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
The first cause could be an universe that has different laws than our universe; thus, that universe doesn't need a cause nor an explanation like things in this universe. Other natural laws are possible.
It is very important not to mistake hemlock for parsley, but to believe or not believe in God is not important at all. - Denis Diderot

We are the United States of Amnesia, we learn nothing because we remember nothing. - Gore Vidal
Reply
#9
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
We're not going to be fooled by this sleight of hand trick where "cause" gets switched out for "intelligent being", then when we're not looking it's changed to "God", and finally the God has a name and a story book. That's three non sequiturs in a row, following an invalid argument to begin with. It couldn't be further from demonstrating what people want it to.

True things don't need all this bullshit trickery.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
Reply
#10
RE: Gaps in theistic arguments. Secular theism vs religious theism
(February 25, 2015 at 4:11 am)Pizz-atheist Wrote: The first cause could be an universe that has different laws than our universe; thus, that universe doesn't need a cause nor an explanation like things in this universe. Other natural laws are possible.

Not even that, the first cause is simply not necessary, because it isn't really defined and it doesn't solve anything imnsho
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  On theism, why do humans have moral duties even if there are objective moral values? Pnerd 37 3087 May 24, 2022 at 11:49 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Good Arguments (Certainty vs. Probability) JAG 12 937 October 8, 2020 at 10:30 pm
Last Post: Sal
  Best arguments for or against God's existence mcc1789 22 2710 May 22, 2019 at 9:16 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Are Atheists using Intellectually Dishonest Arguments? vulcanlogician 223 28094 April 9, 2018 at 5:56 pm
Last Post: KevinM1
  Ask a Secular Humanist! chimp3 44 8346 March 20, 2018 at 6:44 am
Last Post: chimp3
  Arguments for God's Existence from Contingency datc 386 41199 December 1, 2017 at 2:07 pm
Last Post: Whateverist
Video Do we live in a universe where theism is likely true? (video) Angrboda 36 11285 May 28, 2017 at 1:53 am
Last Post: bennyboy
  Valid Arguments for God (soundness disputed) Mystic 17 2034 March 25, 2017 at 2:54 pm
Last Post: brewer
  Arguments for God from a purely philosophical perspective Aegon 13 2861 January 24, 2016 at 2:44 am
Last Post: robvalue
  Hume weakened analogical arguments for God. Pizza 18 5886 March 25, 2015 at 6:13 pm
Last Post: Pyrrho



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)