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What if Judas didn't do it?
#59
RE: What if Judas didn't do it?
(February 23, 2023 at 7:00 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote:
(February 23, 2023 at 3:42 am)Belacqua Wrote: Well I don't understand this at all. Oh well.

Yeah, I do not see how his objection has anything to do with basic Christian doctrine. I suppose a wooden interpretation of "the Word" in John 1:1 could be seen as a form of idealism. Since in Scholastic theology, i.e. Roman Catholic dogma, the existence of God is identical to His essence, the poverty of Randian ideology is exposed by a third option, not considered by binary thinkers. Perhaps, God's existence and His awareness of His existence may be considered distinct yet remain inalienable.

The primacy of existence principle identifies the fact that reality does not conform to conscious activity.  No one is saying that Christianity violates the primacy of existence because it claims that God's existence and his awareness of his existence may be considered distinct yet remain inalienable.  This is certainly not what I am saying.  No, it affirms the primacy of consciousness because it claims that the reality that we all know and experience is a product of a mind or a subject of consciousness, that this mind or will can alter it at will, that it can perform miracles, that reality conforms to its desires and wishes.  In essence, it says that wishing makes things so.  This is inarguable.  It says it explicitly and in more than one place.  How about Mathew 17:20?  It says that if you have faith (a type of conscious activity) the size of a mere mustard seed, you can say to the mountain move and it will move.  This is as clear an affirmation of the POC as you can get.  If you will it, then reality will jump to conform to your will.  There's no wiggle room here.  There's no escaping this.  This is something that Christians need to answer.  

Now over the last 20 years, I've encountered many attempts to dodge this problem.  One of them is what you have tried, namely to change the meaning of the primacy of consciousness.  Another is to say that while human minds don't have primacy over their objects but God's mind does.  This does not rescue the Christian but only moves the issue to which subject has primacy over reality.  It solves nothing.  This is essentially saying that reality is one way for one kind of consciousness but another way for another kind of consciousness.  This is just a different way of saying that reality is dependent on consciousness which is an expression of the POC.  There have been many other attempts over the years.  Several Christians have denied that God created everything in order to try and get around this problem because they did recognize that this is a real problem.  Others have said that this is a trivial, meaningless, made-up issue.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  Since all knowledge is knowledge of some object by some subject, then the issue of which has primacy in the relationship between a subject and its objects is front and center.  Object means anything we perceive or consider and subject just means the mind That is perceiving or considering.   So since God is supposed to be conscious, the question arises:  what is the relationship between God as subject and the objects that it is aware of?  The answer that Christianity gives is resoundingly the primacy of the subject.

It is incoherent to say that the objects of consciousness have primacy and do not have primacy, or the objects have primacy and so does the subject.  It's either one or the other.  There's that binary thinking again because logic tells us that the middle case is excluded.  

When a Christian uses the term 'objective', he or she is performatively invoking the primacy of existence while at the same time denying it.   When he says God is the source of 'objective morality' he is performatively affirming that objectivity has its basis in subjectivity.  A blatant contradiction. If 'objective morlaity' is taken to mean a morality that is true regardless of anyone's thoughts or beliefs to the contrary then clearly objectivity is exclusively based on the POE.
"Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture,  an intransigent mind, and a step that travels unlimited roads."

"The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody has decided not to see."
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Messages In This Thread
What if Judas didn't do it? - by Fake Messiah - February 16, 2023 at 10:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 16, 2023 at 10:26 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 16, 2023 at 10:50 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 16, 2023 at 11:00 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 17, 2023 at 10:39 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by brewer - February 17, 2023 at 11:35 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 17, 2023 at 11:54 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by h4ym4n - February 17, 2023 at 12:24 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - February 17, 2023 at 12:40 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 17, 2023 at 1:00 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 18, 2023 at 4:17 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 18, 2023 at 5:11 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 18, 2023 at 7:54 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 18, 2023 at 8:05 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 18, 2023 at 8:30 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 18, 2023 at 9:08 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 19, 2023 at 3:44 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 19, 2023 at 5:31 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 19, 2023 at 6:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 20, 2023 at 1:04 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Rev. Rye - February 20, 2023 at 9:58 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - February 18, 2023 at 8:35 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by h4ym4n - February 19, 2023 at 6:42 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - February 19, 2023 at 2:14 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - February 19, 2023 at 7:11 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 20, 2023 at 4:45 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 20, 2023 at 4:15 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Rev. Rye - February 20, 2023 at 5:26 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - February 20, 2023 at 11:14 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 30, 2023 at 8:32 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - March 30, 2023 at 11:34 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 31, 2023 at 9:38 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - March 31, 2023 at 2:38 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 31, 2023 at 9:06 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - March 31, 2023 at 9:41 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 31, 2023 at 11:40 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - March 31, 2023 at 11:38 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 1, 2023 at 12:46 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 1, 2023 at 2:42 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 1, 2023 at 3:14 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 1, 2023 at 4:04 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 1, 2023 at 4:39 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 2, 2023 at 12:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 1, 2023 at 7:58 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 1, 2023 at 9:13 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 6:54 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 11:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 7:28 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 8:31 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 3, 2023 at 11:18 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 3, 2023 at 11:43 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 4, 2023 at 12:43 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 4, 2023 at 1:47 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 10, 2023 at 8:40 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 10, 2023 at 8:45 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by h4ym4n - April 10, 2023 at 9:01 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 10, 2023 at 9:03 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by h4ym4n - April 10, 2023 at 9:10 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 10, 2023 at 9:20 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 10, 2023 at 9:07 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 10, 2023 at 9:18 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 10, 2023 at 10:41 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Valkyrie - April 10, 2023 at 10:50 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 11, 2023 at 10:09 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - April 11, 2023 at 10:12 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 11, 2023 at 12:51 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 2, 2023 at 8:06 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 8:14 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Mister Agenda - February 20, 2023 at 12:20 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by brewer - February 20, 2023 at 5:37 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 20, 2023 at 6:33 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Rev. Rye - February 20, 2023 at 9:32 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 21, 2023 at 1:52 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Pat Mustard - February 23, 2023 at 8:28 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 22, 2023 at 11:29 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 22, 2023 at 10:02 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 23, 2023 at 1:28 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 23, 2023 at 2:01 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 23, 2023 at 3:10 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 23, 2023 at 3:42 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 23, 2023 at 5:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 23, 2023 at 9:56 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 23, 2023 at 7:00 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 23, 2023 at 7:49 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 25, 2023 at 11:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 25, 2023 at 11:45 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 25, 2023 at 11:57 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 26, 2023 at 12:03 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 26, 2023 at 12:14 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 27, 2023 at 12:09 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 27, 2023 at 11:33 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 24, 2023 at 1:11 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by brewer - February 23, 2023 at 7:20 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 23, 2023 at 12:56 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 23, 2023 at 1:12 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - February 23, 2023 at 4:16 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Pat Mustard - February 23, 2023 at 5:19 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Architect Of Fate - February 23, 2023 at 7:18 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 23, 2023 at 8:06 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Architect Of Fate - February 23, 2023 at 8:16 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 23, 2023 at 11:16 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 24, 2023 at 1:51 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 24, 2023 at 1:19 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 23, 2023 at 8:19 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 23, 2023 at 8:32 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 23, 2023 at 11:26 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 23, 2023 at 11:46 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 24, 2023 at 1:34 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Objectivist - February 25, 2023 at 10:14 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 24, 2023 at 1:52 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Paleophyte - February 25, 2023 at 1:39 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Fake Messiah - February 27, 2023 at 4:41 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by brewer - February 25, 2023 at 10:21 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 25, 2023 at 11:55 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 27, 2023 at 12:20 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 12:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Architect Of Fate - February 27, 2023 at 12:33 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 27, 2023 at 2:58 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 27, 2023 at 3:05 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 3:33 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - February 27, 2023 at 9:29 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 27, 2023 at 8:58 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 7:57 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - February 27, 2023 at 9:00 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 27, 2023 at 9:03 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 8:37 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - February 27, 2023 at 9:02 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 9:44 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 27, 2023 at 9:56 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - February 27, 2023 at 10:22 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 12:45 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 12:54 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - February 28, 2023 at 5:51 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:00 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:01 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:24 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:26 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:34 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:41 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:46 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 1:48 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:50 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 1:57 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 28, 2023 at 5:26 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 5:29 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - February 28, 2023 at 5:40 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 6:10 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - February 28, 2023 at 7:14 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 9:10 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - February 28, 2023 at 6:20 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Neo-Scholastic - March 2, 2023 at 4:02 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by HappySkeptic - March 2, 2023 at 4:17 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - March 2, 2023 at 5:02 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - March 2, 2023 at 5:54 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - March 30, 2023 at 9:24 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2023 at 10:28 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - March 31, 2023 at 8:56 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - March 31, 2023 at 2:40 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - March 31, 2023 at 2:45 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 3, 2023 at 10:56 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 1, 2023 at 4:27 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Goosebump - April 1, 2023 at 6:00 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 1, 2023 at 6:45 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - April 1, 2023 at 6:53 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 1, 2023 at 9:07 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 2, 2023 at 7:04 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - April 2, 2023 at 12:20 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 12:36 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 2, 2023 at 12:39 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 1:12 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 2, 2023 at 2:57 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 3:16 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 2, 2023 at 3:28 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 7:34 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Angrboda - April 2, 2023 at 4:59 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Valkyrie - April 2, 2023 at 6:10 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 7:42 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by John 6IX Breezy - April 2, 2023 at 9:18 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Silver - April 2, 2023 at 9:44 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 2, 2023 at 11:07 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 3, 2023 at 9:30 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Belacqua - April 3, 2023 at 10:38 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 3, 2023 at 7:57 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2023 at 12:17 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2023 at 1:18 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2023 at 1:50 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 4, 2023 at 2:03 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by The Grand Nudger - April 4, 2023 at 9:57 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Lek - April 9, 2023 at 10:30 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by arewethereyet - April 9, 2023 at 10:33 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Lek - April 9, 2023 at 10:50 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Fake Messiah - April 10, 2023 at 1:14 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by BrianSoddingBoru4 - April 10, 2023 at 2:52 am
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Ferrocyanide - April 10, 2023 at 8:58 pm
RE: What if Judas didn't do it? - by Anomalocaris - April 11, 2023 at 12:00 am

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