(May 13, 2023 at 12:27 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:(May 12, 2023 at 1:56 pm)Kingpin Wrote: OK, reaching out to my agnostic/atheist friends. I'm very curious, genuinely interested, are there are "arguments" that theists have provided for proof of a God's existence (not even the Christian God), that you found compelling? Or caused you to pause and perhaps say, there might be A God out there?
I found that when it's all broken down in most debates, an agnostic/atheist boils down to moral arguments/judgments against God, which in and of themselves does not disprove there being a God per se. Just that they refuse to accept a God they find reprehensible.
No, even a Prime-Mover sort of god strikes me as very, very, very [...] unlikely to exist -- entirely apart from any proclaimed morals qualities. The fact that the Abrahamic god has qualities which implicitly contradict its proclaimed morality makes it that much easier to see through the tissue of nonsense.
So no, once I actually started thinking about the whole thing, I haven't found any religionist arguments compelling.
We can address the confliction of perceived moral qualities later. As I'd honestly like to keep the God of the Bible and religion out of this discussion.
You mentioned a prime-mover. For argument sake, we can call it the FSM. An intelligent, spaceless, timeless, immaterial being if you will. Not invoking any theology, quoiting the Bible, I believe there is sufficient evidence from science and logic to lead to the Prime Mover being VERY likely. I find it fascinating that you mention you started thinking and came to the opposite conclusion, but that may be because of the religious arguments.
To me the cosmological, teleological arguments are sufficient to lead me to this Prime Mover. No question the universe (space, time, matter) had a beginning. The fine tuning to make life possible is incredible. It's not "chance and statistical probability", but design with purpose. The bottom up theory (naturalism) is incredibly flawed and those that hold to it should question if they can trust any thoughts of their own mind (Charles Darwin espoused this argument too).
Lastly, if the Cosmo/Teleo argument point to a prime mover as the most plausible cause, the mover must also be personal. Why? To create something is a choice, it's rational to believe the prime mover is personal.
We are not made happy by what we acquire but by what we appreciate.


