Yeah, sure, I write in a hurry and make some typos now and then. This isn't an academic paper or something, but a forum discussion. The point there was that Louis Lapides became a Christian on reading Isaiah 53, as have many before and since. Did any of you watch the OP video I linked to from Tree of Life Ministries on the Streets of Israel? Many of the Jewish people to whom the Christian is ministering frankly admit it's most likely Yeshua whom the Prophet is speaking of in Isaiah 53. "He was despised and rejected by men; a Man of Sorrows, and acquainted with grief ... yet there was no deceit in His Mouth". Here's the video again: It has some 4 MN views on You Tube and is called the Forbidden Chapter because some Rabbis forbade it in the Synagogues as it pointed to Jesus Christ. https://youtu.be/cGz9BVJ_k6s From the video description: "3,913,002 views Sep 25, 2015 #TreeofLifeMinistries #EvangelismInIsrael #StreetEvangelism Did you know that Isaiah 53 is a FORBIDDEN CHAPTER in most synagogues? We read this powerful prophecy with Israelis on the streets. See how deeply they were moved as they came face to face with their Messiah!"
Now, let's back to the issue: Grandizer, any comments on the Rabbi I cited who understood Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah: (1) "Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai: “The meaning of the words ‘bruised for our iniquities’ [Isaiah 53:5] is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer them for them himself.“ (2) The Babylon Talmud also says this of the Messiah: “His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”. Finally, (3) a well known Jewish Prayer for Yom Kippur, a Post-Christian one at that, openly states: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”
Now, let's come back to the Prophet Isaiah himself: let me use your own translation. You wrote: "The verse does not say, “He was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities,” which could convey the vicarious suffering ascribed to Jesus. Rather, the proper translation is: “He was wounded because of our transgressions, and crushed because of our iniquities.” Ok, how does the meaning change exactly?
Whether He was crushed "for" our transgressions or "because" of our transgressions, the meaning is ultimately the same. Christ died for our sins and because of our sins. Finally, note that in Isaiah 49, the Servant and Israel are clearly distinguished as two separate entities, the Servant as a Messianic Figure, Israel as the people He came to save along with the Gentiles: "And now the Lord says he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob [Israel] back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and my God has been my strength—6 he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob [Israel] and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
This is the Prophecy Simeon cited in the Jewish Temple when the Child Jesus was brought to him, saying "A light to enlighten the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel" (Luk 2:32). Jewish Tradition has understood these Servant Passages of the Messiah, as the Rabbis I cited show.
Finally, note that Biblical Figures are sometimes called by their ancestors, for e.g. the Messiah is sometimes called David, because He is a Son of David. For a similar reason He is sometimes called Israel, because He is a Son of Israel. Israel refers to the name of the Patriarch Jacob, whose name was changed by God to Israel. Here is one such passage: "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees." (Ez 37:24). David in this passage stands for the Messiah, the Son of David.
Regards,
Xavier.
Now, let's back to the issue: Grandizer, any comments on the Rabbi I cited who understood Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah: (1) "Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai: “The meaning of the words ‘bruised for our iniquities’ [Isaiah 53:5] is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer them for them himself.“ (2) The Babylon Talmud also says this of the Messiah: “His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”. Finally, (3) a well known Jewish Prayer for Yom Kippur, a Post-Christian one at that, openly states: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”
Now, let's come back to the Prophet Isaiah himself: let me use your own translation. You wrote: "The verse does not say, “He was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities,” which could convey the vicarious suffering ascribed to Jesus. Rather, the proper translation is: “He was wounded because of our transgressions, and crushed because of our iniquities.” Ok, how does the meaning change exactly?
Whether He was crushed "for" our transgressions or "because" of our transgressions, the meaning is ultimately the same. Christ died for our sins and because of our sins. Finally, note that in Isaiah 49, the Servant and Israel are clearly distinguished as two separate entities, the Servant as a Messianic Figure, Israel as the people He came to save along with the Gentiles: "And now the Lord says he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob [Israel] back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and my God has been my strength—6 he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob [Israel] and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
This is the Prophecy Simeon cited in the Jewish Temple when the Child Jesus was brought to him, saying "A light to enlighten the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel" (Luk 2:32). Jewish Tradition has understood these Servant Passages of the Messiah, as the Rabbis I cited show.
Finally, note that Biblical Figures are sometimes called by their ancestors, for e.g. the Messiah is sometimes called David, because He is a Son of David. For a similar reason He is sometimes called Israel, because He is a Son of Israel. Israel refers to the name of the Patriarch Jacob, whose name was changed by God to Israel. Here is one such passage: "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees." (Ez 37:24). David in this passage stands for the Messiah, the Son of David.
Regards,
Xavier.
