What is Justice?

[reverendjeremiah]

Perhaps the absurdist answers their question too quickly. Perhaps they found no meaning, but does that necessitate that no meaning is there? Personally I try to appreciate questions which have no answer - although I am all to quick to fill them with subjective responses. Justice based on basic needs is interesting. Would justice only pertain to the basic needs, and who establishes basic needs?

They are aware of this, and that is why they continue to search for universal meaning even in the midst of absurdity. That is why I say there is a duality to humanity. This is not to be confussed with Dualism, which is a completely different philosophy. Absurdists will be the first to say they may be wrong with the absurdist philosophy. this is in stark contrast with those who cling to other philosophies who "know" their philosophy is correct. The absurdist hero of 1984, when being tortured near the end of the book, claims that Big brother must be wrong. He is asked by big brother how can that be true with no universal meaning (which orwell simplifies as "god"). The hero admits that he doesnt believe in god, but even then hopes that some sort of "human spirit" could break the grasp of Big Brother. big Brother claims that by controlling the opinion and memory of the people, they control reality. That humanity is "imagine a boot continually stomping a face".

Does this then mean that justice is merely a thought which has no real existence outside of the consciousness which creates it? I do find much philosophical knowledge within Plato's theory of forms, but I try to be open minded.

In my opinion yes. Justice is merely an opinion. One persons idea of "justice" is another persons opinion of "tyranny".

Theory of forms in this situation suggests that a "perfect form" of justice must exist, since we are able to think of it. If a perfect form of "Justice" existed, then it would be obvious. Obvious like "this solid wall is solid" obvious. But it is not. Ive discussed this with my history professor uncle who is agnostic, yet holds strongly to Plato. He still holds to the perfection of forms. I tell him things change over time, and the only way a perfection of forms could ever truly exist is if all time stopped. even then many things considered a perfect form, such as Justice, would still not exist.

Dualism fascinates me, but so does monism. Once again, I try to embrace multiple perspectives while comparing their validity.

Shit, I would argue that dualism and monism exists at the same time - or at least there is no way we could be sure that either is correct. We would be blinded by intent. ..but that is for another discussion.

I'm afraid, as I read over what has become of our conversation, we have missed the question entirely while coming to an understanding of subjective consciousness. Perhaps we could attempt to regain control of the direction of conversation, if you are still interested in the topic at hand.

Of course we went off track most of the times. We are humans. humans are blinded by their intent...they are blinded by their wants and needs. Im always interested.

The initial question: what is justice? has been hidden under an overarching question of: does justice exist?

Well, to be honest, if we have no proof that Justice exists outside of human opinion then all we will be doing is discussing our opinions on the matter.

Im with min, we may as well beat our heads on the table.

To continue the conversation I'd be happy to assume that justice does exist - regardless of its objective or subjective nature. From here, is it possible to establish what the ideal justice would look like? As peers collaborating on a subject of interest - taking in each other's points of view and melding them to create an ideal?

I dont think it would fix the problem.

I'll attempt to offer a very general definition of my ideal justice.
Justice - Equal application of consequence

I would then argue that you have decided to equate "justice" with "consistency". Slavery of black people would then be just as long as all blacks are slaves.

I'd be interested in hearing what you would have to add or subtract from this, as well as your own definition of ideal justice.

I dont know..I honestly do not know. Anything I would say on the subject would merely be an opinion, and not concrete.

Justice is an equity and consistency in upholding a value. "Do as I say, not as I do" would be the exact opposite of this definition.

..but, like I said before, I would strongly argue that it is opinion and not fact.