I apologise for any incoherence in what follows, I am technically refraining as much as possible from contributing due to being in the midst of a depressive episode. In practise this means that my thoughts are distracted and disjointed as well as my being overly-sensitive and thus more likely to lash out unexpectedly. I am trying to reign it in as much as Im able and can only beg your indulgence. Please don't think that I'm trying to forestall criticism here, if my comments are indeed total bollocks then I hope someone will point it out. Right, minirant over:
All I want to throw in here to back up DP's point is the observation that not only do we live in a natural universe, but we all of us accept that by default. Whenever we open our front doors, we expect without thinking to find the same view that we saw the last time we checked instead of, say, the surface of Mars. In a non-natural universe there would be no reason to expect things to remain the same and probably every reason to expect that they won't. The keyboard on my desk here looks the same as it did last time I saw it, feels the same, sounds the same. Each key I press produces the effect I expect it to; the key labelled x types a letter x each time: xxxxxx. I have never experienced the x key leaping into the air and flying away; the whole keyboard has never suddenly become a duck or a bacon sandwich. Now - is it a natural keyboard that can never behave like that, or a non-natural one that has only behaved naturally up to now (or perhaps only when someone's watching it)?
I admit that I once saw a car turn into a sidestreet though.
(January 18, 2012 at 6:55 am)apophenia Wrote:(January 18, 2012 at 1:17 am)DeistPaladin Wrote: That wasn't my point, that if it's not happening today it could never have happened. My point was we live in a natural universe.
If this was your point, then you've lost round one. The Christian can simply assert that we do not live in a naturalistic universe (perhaps cosmos would be a better term), and you're left proving a negative to prosecute your case. Good luck with that.
All I want to throw in here to back up DP's point is the observation that not only do we live in a natural universe, but we all of us accept that by default. Whenever we open our front doors, we expect without thinking to find the same view that we saw the last time we checked instead of, say, the surface of Mars. In a non-natural universe there would be no reason to expect things to remain the same and probably every reason to expect that they won't. The keyboard on my desk here looks the same as it did last time I saw it, feels the same, sounds the same. Each key I press produces the effect I expect it to; the key labelled x types a letter x each time: xxxxxx. I have never experienced the x key leaping into the air and flying away; the whole keyboard has never suddenly become a duck or a bacon sandwich. Now - is it a natural keyboard that can never behave like that, or a non-natural one that has only behaved naturally up to now (or perhaps only when someone's watching it)?
I admit that I once saw a car turn into a sidestreet though.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
