(February 25, 2012 at 2:58 am)Abracadabra Wrote: The first being that Jesus was asking the Father to forgive these men. That contradicts John 5:22 and shows that Jesus himself was not aware that he was to be the sole judge of men.John 5:22 is Jesus’ own reported words and not John’s. And you will also notice from Scripture that Jesus does the Father’will ( Joh 5:30 "I can do nothing on my own. As I hear, I judge, and my judgment is just, because I seek not my own will but the will of him who sent me.)
By asking the Father to forgive is thus accepting the Father’s will as the determining factor. Seen in perspective then- Jesus will execute judgement in accordance with the will of the Father. Jesus also acts in accordance with his own command to “pray for those that persecute you” and also in accordance with how Jesus teaches us to pray. When we pray for our enemies, it is a reflection of what is in our hearts.
To imply that “ignorance” is accepted as an excuse is a wrong interpretation of the “for they do not know what they are doing” as it contrary to the whole principle of grace where we are not justified by what we know, but by grace without merit. Supporting evidence from Scripture for your view will be appreciated. The whole of Scripture has an opposing view.
Quote:The second blatant contradiction is that Jesus is forgiving these men based on a principle of his observation or belief that these men are not understanding what they are doing wrong. (i.e. They know not what they do).
Therefore, Jesus himself at this point in these fables is contradicting John 3:18 that anyone who does not believe in the name of the son of God is condemned already. Clearly Jesus is prepared to forgive these men even though they do not recognize the divinity of Jesus, nor are they asking to be forgiven.
Your assumption (unwarranted from the words in the passage) is that their sins are forgiven. You will notice that it is Jesus’ petition to the Father. Yes, Jesus understands that they are “blinded”, and cannot see. Take the example of an “unbeliever”. He/she rejects Christ because they “do not know what they are doing”. If they knew, they would not reject Christ. This is consistent with
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Your interpretation of a single verse is thus inconsistent with Scripture and the trap that many cults and heretics fall into.
The view that Jesus is making “intercession” for those that persecute Him is consistent with the rest of the Bible, consistent with Jesus' own commandments to us to pray for those that persecute us, and in fulfilment of prophecy. (Isa 53:12 and makes intercession for the transgressors. )
Quote:In fact, John 3:18 isn't even John quoting Jesus, it's just John narrating his own personal opinions.That will be interesting to find out what your sources are for suggesting this and on what basis he/she/they comes to this conclusion.
No problem reading as I enjoy it as it takes one out of your "comfort zone" and question the things that you have always accepted and sometimes never questioned or viewed from another perspective.

May you have a great week ahead!