RE: Do you believe in free will?
March 13, 2012 at 10:40 am
(This post was last modified: March 13, 2012 at 10:40 am by NoMoreFaith.)
(March 13, 2012 at 9:49 am)genkaus Wrote: I think there is a critical error in this statement which gives it a form of a loaded question. You use the term "changing the future", which means that the future is in some sense predetermined - that there is a set course from which it may or may not deviate. In a question regarding free-will vs determinism, you are already presupposing determinism.
In fairness, that is EXACTLY why I defined the presuppositions before posing the question. It is not a loaded question because I defined the presuppositions and the logical (to me) conclusions.
NoMoreFaith Wrote:The universe can only be changed in a limited number of ways.
1) Changing the current or past state of the universe in this instant we have paused.
2) Changing the fundamental laws of the universe that dictate how the universe progresses from one instant to another.
You ignored these statements in your answer. If these statements contain a logical or scientific fallacy, then the question is loaded. But I see no dismissal of this.
(March 13, 2012 at 9:49 am)genkaus Wrote: At this level of consideration, it makes no sense to discuss free-will, since the only thing here it can be free from is causality and nothing is free from causality.
Precisely. Free Will is an illusion, and a useful one, but no thing is free from causality(maybe quantum mechanics comes back into play again at this point since its known to often be observably an exception), no matter how complex the variations of causation are.
To prove free will, you must show how the universe changes from one state to another through our will. However, I am happy to accept "I Don't Know" as an answer, I'm not a theist after all
(March 13, 2012 at 9:49 am)genkaus Wrote: The question of free-will becomes relevant when we consider the person as a separate section of the causal chain and seek to evaluate his role in it. At that point, free-will means relative freedom from rest of the causal chain. Here's where the question of free-will holds any relevance and where I consider it to be very real. Since the separation requires the agent to be an independent entity, I would say that the answer to your question is "at the formation of the ego."
So the formation of the ego actually separates us from causal chains?
While I don't dismiss your argument, since we are both bordering on the unfalsifiable, I see no reason to believe this is a possibility.
In order to do so, the ego much be an agent of change, to amend your will, between two separate states of existence. I.e. the ego must be able to decide between alternatives outside of the control, thou influenced by, biological causations.
It just does is unsatisfying obviously, so we have choice A and choice B. If there is a chain of reasoning which leads to preferenace A, then it is clearly determined. In order for free will in this instance to exist, it must be made in each 'instant' rather than recourse to any previous 'instant' of the universe.
Who knows, free will, like the universe may well be queerer than we can suppose. I simply see no reason for it to be.
Self-authenticating private evidence is useless, because it is indistinguishable from the illusion of it. ― Kel, Kelosophy Blog
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm
If you’re going to watch tele, you should watch Scooby Doo. That show was so cool because every time there’s a church with a ghoul, or a ghost in a school. They looked beneath the mask and what was inside?
The f**king janitor or the dude who runs the waterslide. Throughout history every mystery. Ever solved has turned out to be. Not Magic. ― Tim Minchin, Storm