(March 18, 2012 at 4:33 am)Phil Wrote: Atheists don't believe in him so why should we define him? Read how he is defined in your stupid bible yourself.
Zen Badger said the Christian God didn't exist. So, he should be able to say what it is he is saying doesn't exist. You apprently have no idea either. But that's not going to stop you from trying to impress me with your intelligence in quantum mechanics, is it?
(March 18, 2012 at 5:37 am)NoMoreFaith Wrote: It relies on metaphysical intuition as its basis. If you are willing to believe in a metaphysical God, you don't see this as a problem, even if logic dictates otherwise.
I just want to know how the existence of God contradicts logic.
Quote:You clearly did not read the earlier arguments. This is a false dichotomy of choice. Those are not the only two options. You also have the universe, in some form always existing as a third. There is conceptually more options than this again.
Either the universe existed forever, eternally, or it had a beginning. I think most cosmologists agree with the idea of the big bang.
Quote:Assuming the universe is not eternal in some form or another, nor descended from different rules. Bear in mind particles zip in and out of existence ALL the time. In fact its a normal state of the universe.
We have only just started touching upon the quantum vacuum where contingency does apparently apply. Even so, nobody proposes this as a definite start to the universe, merely theres a lot out there we don't understand, and "GodDidIt" is an unsatisfactory answer as it most definitely asserts "Magic".
So, how long does that ignorance play? A thousand years of saying, "We just don't know, but we will never accept the idea of God."
Quote:Defining God as eternal is not helpful either, because its simply an unproven assertion, not evidence, nor logical argument. Simple assertion. In this instance, you are simply demanding proof of a negative, ignoring all the other negatives that cannot be disproven. The onus of proof is on you for that assertion, and we both know that this will not be forthcoming.
Proof? What do you mean? The universe is obviously contingent and it obviously is ordered logically. That makes God an inescapable conclusion, and not matter what quantum speculation we invoke, the above facts will not change.
Quote:BTW, we are arguing for the existence of Zeus or Thor aren't we? We really should define which God you are talking about and how you link an argument which you believe proves a God, to your VERY SPECIFIC god with VERY SPECIFIC attributes. Please provide your link and working. (Clue: The Bible proves nothing).
God is the monistic entity of fundamental consciousness that created the universe.
Quote:There has to be a cause of the universe outside of the universe. It may be a stretch to call it a Christian version of God, but this first cause, must be intelligent and willful and capable of design. We therefore assume it to be conscious. That's why we assume it to be God.
Quote:Look at your wording "HAS TO BE". This isn't a definite at all. If God can be given the attribute of "uncaused" then you have broken the chain of "everything has a cause" which means your initial premise is disproven by your original argument. Saying there is a cause OUTSIDE of the universe where rules don't apply, does not lead to intelligence, because that is an incredibly complex being, whereas you would be more logical in assuming "outside" universe that simply has different laws. Occams Razor applies in full force.
Everything other than God, that is.
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