The Magic of Atheism?

[mediamogul]

Well, out of thirty replies, this is the only one that isn't either grossly insulting, or diversionary.

In terms of the philosophy behind these arguments they are basically the First Cause argument and the teleological argument or argument from design.

Yes. I would say that is true

Simple logic disproves the first one.

Simple logic disproves the cosmological argument? Why is it still around then?

You state the universe must have a cause because it cannot come from nothing (which is not what modern physics neccessarily states but I'll play along)

I know. I just finished reading a book of cosmological speculation called, "A Universe from Nothing" by Lawrence Krauss. It is, and there's no other way to put this, silly. Atheists must have the universe come from nothing or they must have the material universe always existing; both positions being impossible. Therefore, impossible, magical cosmological theories are put forth by highly credentialed atheist scientists, and that appeal to authority is then what passes for truth. But the evidence leads an open-minded individual to postulate the existence of a Divine intelligence.

and therefore there must exist an uncaused cause which created the universe. You then call this thing that caused the universe "god". Surely God would be more complex than the universe and demands a cause himself. What caused god to come into existence? Then what caused god's cause? So on and so forth. We end up with an infinite regress.

But that's just it, we don't end up with a regress. The term God implies an eternal being. So why couldn't the universe be eternal? Because everything in it is contingent. There has to be a cause of the universe outside of the universe. It may be a stretch to call it a Christian version of God, but this first cause, must be intelligent and willful and capable of design. We therefore assume it to be conscious. That's why we assume it to be God.

The "laws" of physics are more just descriptions of the way that matter behaves. Quantum physics demonstrates how those once deemed immutable laws don't apply on a sub-atomic level. We simply refer to them as "laws" because it makes more sense to our human brains. The "laws" of physics most likely came into existence with the universe and there could foreseeably exist other universes in which the "laws" of physics do not behave in the way that we understand them to. None of it implies intelligence.

In other words, your atheist response is this: "Things just are." But you do realize that is more a crucifixion of the intellect than faith is. That's just ignoring the hard questions.

And the idea of God is not just something someone just made up. There seems to be no time in human history when God wasn't assumed to exist. I admit, there are many questions about the nature of God. Why does God exist at all? How does he create things? Can he create a truly freewill creature, etc. But all of these types of questions can only be answered after we assume the existence of God.

Couple of things. These arguments will stick around as long as people continue to be decieved by their circular and unfounded logic. Also, just because people believe them doesn't make them true. It's the old belief from popular opinion fallacy and I'm going to assume we are at least able to agree that arguing as such is not sound. The history of the human race is practically point for point (up until people discovered science) people "getting shit dead wrong." as Bill Maher says.

If one believes that an uncaused thing can exist (i.e. god) then why can't the universe exist as an uncaused thing? If all things that exist require a cause then God must have been caused to come into existence by some other force and then we get the infinite regress. Also if believing that something always existed is silly, then I would take a hard look at the nature of your own Christian beliefs because it appears that is EXACTLY what Christians believe about god. Plus it's only silly when it contradicts what people want to believe about the universe.

Next, lets not forget something. WE are appealing to science. You are appealing to the supernatural for the cause and structure of the universe. This is classic christian spin of the issue.

Lastly, I heard you criticize someone for talking quantum physics. Look, man, we are talking about the universe and you asked questions that quantum physics has some very plausible answers to. Particularly the fact that at high energy levels matter can come into existence apparently ex nihilo. This is the problem though many Christians I know only read the pseudo-science that apologists construct to refute the claims of valid, mainstream science. The same science that makes a cell phone work gave use evidence for the Big Bang.

This is the last I will say because reading back through the arguments, I realize that I may be wasting my time...