(August 12, 2009 at 9:21 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: You can't prove anything you just said empirically through the scientific method,I never said that. I said that we can prove Gods existence empirically after the effect, but that this has to happen outside of natural science because the natural sciences a priori exclude the testing investigation of propositions that transcend the natural world as within it's scope. If you, on the basis of that a priori exclusion, presume that it means God doesn't exist, you are begging the question based on an a priori exclusion which will work for any other positive denial of any other claim - and that is simply not what the scientific methodological naturalism mandates. What it does mandate is to wholly exclude the investigation of such proposition from the natural sciences since it is outside of their realm.
(August 12, 2009 at 9:21 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: Besides all that, you say god is omnipotent, can he create a rock that even he can't lift? Your descriptions of god are, by nature, contradictory.A rock that can't possibly be lifted by an omnipotent being is not an actual potentiality, and so, it doesnt fall within the definition of omnipotence. It is like a perfectly circular triangle, not a potentiality, but a self-contradiction. Since the logical order is transcendent and present in the divine nature, self-contradictions are not possible. This objection is often raised by ignorant atheists; very bad attempt to attack the coherence of monotheism.
(August 12, 2009 at 9:21 pm)Eilonnwy Wrote: BTW, as a side note, even if you could prove the Christian god empirically, that doesn't mean I would worship him. I would never worship a god that condones murder and slavery. I would never worship a god that continues to watch people suffer in poverty and does nothing. That's an evil god.Now you are speculating what you would believe if Christianity was true. And if heaven was real, suffering for a whole life would be much better than being lost in hell for eternity. And so, since a Christian knows nothing about which souls are saved and which are not, there would be no way to judge whether God is "evil" for permitting suffering in this life, until you see the justice in the next one. Besides, if the God of Christianity does exist, there would be no higher or more real moral authority to appeal to, that would know better how to create the best possible world, than an omniscient God.
The people who are the most bigoted are the people who have no convictions at all.
-G. K. Chesterton
-G. K. Chesterton