RE: Do you believe in free will?
April 13, 2012 at 9:46 am
(This post was last modified: April 13, 2012 at 9:48 am by Perhaps.)
(April 12, 2012 at 10:43 pm)genkaus Wrote: For your original statement to stand, the non-material must exist separately, if not independently - i.e. it must have a separate identity from the material. What does invalidate your statement is your assertion that consciousness can exist without any mechanism to be conscious.
The original statement:
I simply believe that the conscious mind, separate from the brain mechanism, provides us with the ability to abstract and to make decisions based on whims. Our physical existence is subject to determined physics, but we have the ability to enact our own causation through the non-material aspect of our conscious.
The conscious mind is dependent on the material brain mechanism. It is separate from the material mechanism, yet still dependent.
(April 12, 2012 at 10:43 pm)genkaus Wrote: I think the question of "time" should be left alone here, since it would lead the discussion into a whole different direction of relativity, space-time continuum and quantum mechanics.
The concept of numbers is a bad analogy, since numbers are a product of consciousness, i.e. of a conscious mind. However, if your idea of conscious mind is not independent of material reality, then how does it escape causality?
I agree that the topic of time is deep and possibly misleading to the conversation, but numbers have been argued for centuries to exist outside of the conscience. Many mathematicians and metaphysicians argue that maths have been discovered, not created by the conscious mind. Once again, the non-material conscience is dependent on the material world (if the physical world didnt' exist then neither would our consciences) but its non-material nature allows it to interact with causation in the physical realm (free will).
(April 12, 2012 at 10:43 pm)genkaus Wrote: First, it needs to be established that it does.
It seems you have a confused view of how a thing can exist non-materially. One is an idealist view, where you imagine this whole other dimension to reality with souls and spirits and possibly gods. Other is the conceptual view, where you see consciousness the same way you see ideas, created by and existing within the human mind.
My opinions as they relate to non-material subjects, are simply that they exist outside of the material realm. Other than that, I couldn't be bothered to explain every way in which I can imagine them existing apart from the materialist perspective. I can't demonstrate that a non-material conscience does in fact give us free will, I can only demonstrate that I believe I do have free will.
Brevity is the soul of wit.