RE: Do you believe in free will?
April 18, 2012 at 12:18 pm
(This post was last modified: April 18, 2012 at 12:28 pm by genkaus.)
(April 18, 2012 at 11:39 am)toro Wrote: Determined/undetermined are collapsed or uncollapsed states that are relative points of view (Rovelli). Points of view are information values and such information has no absolute value (Shannon). Values are relative/subjective (Einstein) [subjectivity was eatablished]. Conciousness is not required to collapse states (Zeilinger). Therefore consciousness is indistinguishable from any other material state (Bitbol) [subjectivity is independent of consciousness].
There. No super soul.
This is where you are wrong. The problem here is equivocation between subjectivity and relativity. Subjectivity, by definition, means dependnence on consciousness. Therefore, either you can establish subjectivity or you can establish independence from consciousness. These positions are mutually exclusive.
Unless the distinction between the quantum meaning and the layman meaning of terms such as POV and information is established, the distinction between relative/subjective becomes fudged leading to the error you just made.
(April 18, 2012 at 12:10 pm)Perhaps Wrote: I think I do have the capacity, but I exist in the reality my mind creates, and that reality doesn't allow for me to do so.
I view the mind as being omnipotent, and to ask the question of whether it is able to create a situation which doesn't correspond with the reality it created thus far is similar to asking the notorious 'can God create a rock so big that he can't lift it'. It's simply a misunderstanding of omnipotence.
This becomes more complicated when you introduce other minds and an external material world as well. I'm not sure how I would address these; I haven't devoted deep thought to this subject in a long while, although this conversation has spurred me to do more so recently.
It seems like you haven't put nay thought into this at all. You are essentially putting forward a circular proposition.
1. I exist in reality.
2. Reality exists in my mind.
3. My mind exists in me.
You premise itself is illogical. You cannot hope to prove anything using this premise because proof presupposes an objective existence of reality.
(April 18, 2012 at 12:17 pm)Perhaps Wrote: The supposition that reality is created by the mind would be the evidence of my statement's truth value.
Try to prove that reality is not created by the mind without using any material constructs in your premises and then we could address my supposition as false.
Way too easy.
1. Reality is what exists independently from any ideas about it. (Tautologically true)
2. If mind creates reality then it is not independent of the mind's ideas about it.
Therefore, mind does not create reality.