RE: Do you believe in free will?
April 18, 2012 at 6:54 pm
(This post was last modified: April 18, 2012 at 6:55 pm by Perhaps.)
(April 18, 2012 at 6:34 pm)genkaus Wrote: Actually, premise 1, which is accepted by both of us, does invalidate your premise 2. Reality, by definition, is independent of mind.
Your error here, which I have pointed out in the past and you failed to acknowledge, is that what your mind creates is a "model of reality" not "reality". These two are fundamentally different things. While in common parlance, people may equivocate between the two, to do so in a philosophical discussion is fundamentally incorrect.
Alright, instead of fighting over the semantics of the argument, I'll alleviate your worry by addressing the subject which is created by the mind as a 'model of reality'. The true material world, which you would equivocate to reality is independent of the mind, as established by premise 1, but the world which we perceive exists within the confines of the mind - inside of our model of reality.
(April 18, 2012 at 6:34 pm)genkaus Wrote: Firstly, their perception of reality is not false, but only incomplete. Unless they fill in the absent parts with something based on absence of perception (and even then, if they fill it with something incorrect), the rest of their perception remains correct. Since I have more mechanism at my disposal, my perception is more complete than theirs, but it is not 100% complete either.
Secondly, the mind does not provide perceptions, it receives them. What we see, hear, smell, feel or taste are the perceptions. They are provided by the independent reality and received by the mechanism in place to do so, i.e our sensory organs. They are then transferred on to our minds. The perceptions that our minds receive are independent of our mind as well. They are determined by the external reality which creates all the possible perceptions and by the perception mechanisms, which filter and forward them.
However, we have set up a criteria for calling them perception only when our minds receive them. That is unless our minds don't receive the data, we do not call them perceptions. This does not mean that our mind provides those perceptions.
I feel that we are arguing over the same concept here. I agree that a true material world exists, and that we perceive parts of that world - although to what extent we can never be certain. The argument is not over whether the material world exists, it is whether free will exists. My assertion is that we perceive our existence within our models of reality, but our minds are external from this model of reality and thus give us free will within it. Our perceptions do reflect the true material world, I believe, but the model of reality we experience is just our bits of perception pieced together.
(April 18, 2012 at 6:34 pm)genkaus Wrote: How does my proof relies on the truth of your original statement. Yes, logic comes from the mind, but logic is not reality, it a model of reality. Your statement is nowhere assumed to be true. And therefore, we most certainly can use logic to disprove your original statement.
Now that we've sorted the semantics of the conversation I think you'll find that my statement holds. The mind creates the models of reality which we exist within.
Brevity is the soul of wit.