RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
April 29, 2012 at 9:31 pm
(This post was last modified: April 29, 2012 at 9:38 pm by Ryft.)
(April 28, 2012 at 7:50 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [Edited]
I have never understood this. If God really loves everyone and wants everyone to believe in him so that he isn't forced by his perfect justice to condemn unbelievers to an eternity in hell, then why doesn't he just show himself continuously to everyone?
God does not love everyone, at least not in the universal sense that is implied by your question; there are some rather explicit statements to this effect (e.g., Ps. 11:5).
"But this contradicts John 3:16!" Does it? I suppose it might if you interpret that passage in isolation, in English, and from a modern Western world view. But that passage does not exist in isolation, nor was it written in English, nor was it framed in a modern Western world view; as such, it would be extraordinarily irresponsible for someone to interpret it in that manner. Taking that passage in the context of (1) the koine Greek language in which it was written, (2) the chapter and book in which it is found, (3) plus giving due consideration to the other material in the Bible by that author, and (4) within the Near Eastern first century Jewish world view, the contradiction is nowhere to be found. It is interesting, the effect produced when handling a text responsibly.
(April 28, 2012 at 7:50 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [Edited]
I already know what you're thinking: free will, blah, blah, blah. Supposedly if God shows himself we can't believe in him freely. We would supposedly do it out of coercion, not love.
Thankfully that is not what I happen to be thinking, for it makes very little sense to me. As you said, "By that logic, then, nobody who actually saw or spoke to God actually believed in him willingly."
(April 29, 2012 at 12:20 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: 1. Is it a person's own fault they go to hell?
2. Is it wrong to not share the gospel to someone?
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
(April 29, 2012 at 1:59 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [Edited.]
See, when you say that a person is entirely responsible for being in hell, and that it's wrong for a Christian to not witness, you're making a big mess for yourself.
Let's say, for example, that Bob is a non-Christian and Larry is a Christian. Larry and Bob are life-long friends, but Larry never witnesses to Bob. In fact, to Bob, Larry is just as secular as he is. Bob eventually dies in his sins. At judgement day, God in effect says to Bob, "I never knew you," and casts him into the lake of fire because Bob never believed out of his free will. Larry also eventually dies, and God allows him into heaven because he believed; but God mentions to Larry, "You never shared the gospel with Bob, and he never believed and is now in hell. You should be ashamed of yourself! Didn't I command you to share the gospel to everyone? Anyway, here's your harp. Happy plucking!"
So which is it? Is Bob in hell because he never believed? Or is he in hell because Larry never witnessed to him? If he's in hell because it's his own (free will) fault, then witnessing is irrelevant. But if he's in hell because Larry didn't witness to him, then his doom is the result of Larry not giving him enough information. It also means that it's not his fault, but someone else's.
The big mess is of your own making; it does not follow given biblical Christianity. (You and I have not met before, so you are not familiar with the distinction I always make between "cultural" and "biblical" Christianity. I think Godschild is fairly representing the former, and your criticism continues to hold against his view.) Let us unpack it and see where your illustration broke down vis-a-vis biblical Christianity.
"Bob eventually dies in his sins," you posited. "At judgement day, God in effect says to Bob, 'I never knew you,' and casts him into the lake of fire because Bob never believed out of his free will." You probably do not see the disconnect that happened between what you started with and what you ended with. You posited that Bob had died in his sins (plural) but that he was cast into hell for his unbelief (singular). The sin of unbelief is just one of the sins for which Bob is cast into hell; it is not the only sin for which he is condemned. Every single thought, word, and deed will be accounted for before the judgment throne. Nor is Larry in any way responsible for Bob's condemnation; Bob is responsible for his own condemnation.
"Larry also eventually dies," you said, "and God allows him into heaven because he believed." That is not why Larry would find himself in heaven. The reason Larry is in heaven is because of the perfect life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, in whom Larry placed his every hope. The penalty that Larry's sins were due were imputed to Christ and treated as if his, and the perfectly righteous life that Christ lived was imputed to Larry and treated as if his. "God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God" (2 Cor. 5:21). Larry's belief could never save him, if for no other reason than his faith in God could never be of the character that it ought to be; "We are all like one who is unclean, all our so-called righteous acts are like a menstrual rag in your sight" (Isa 64:6). The only righteousness that merits a heavenly reward is that of Christ, who alone lived a perfectly sinless life—which is precisely why Larry placed his every hope in him.
"But," you continued, "God mentions to Larry, 'You never shared the gospel with Bob, and he never believed and is now in hell. You should be ashamed of yourself! Didn't I command you to share the gospel to everyone?" Your illustration assumes that God will mention any of Larry's sins to him, but God will do nothing of the sort. The day that Larry stands before God in heaven, the only thing that God will see is the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ in whom Larry is securely kept, all of Larry's sins having been dealt with and nailed to the cross of his only Savior. God promised that he would no longer remember Larry's sins (Heb. 8:12; 10:17; cf. Jer. 31:31-34) because the record of the charges against him were taken away, having been nailed to the cross (Col. 2:14). So, no, God will not mention any of Larry's sins to him.
"Anyway, here's your harp. Happy plucking!" This was, I hope, tongue-in-cheek and can be disregarded. I hope.
(April 29, 2012 at 1:59 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [Edited.]
So which is it? Is Bob in hell because he never believed? Or is he in hell because Larry never witnessed to him?
The former—and, again, it is only one of the legion of sins for which he is condemned apart from Christ.
(April 29, 2012 at 1:59 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: [Edited.]
If he's in hell because it's his own (free will) fault, then witnessing is irrelevant.
That does not follow. If Larry cannot be blamed for Bob being condemned to hell, then how does that make witnessing irrelevant?
(April 29, 2012 at 10:58 am)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: But if you say that keeping the gospel a secret is wrong, then you're saying the preaching the gospel might increase the number of saved people (i.e. it does make a difference).
Preaching the gospel does not increase the number of saved people. There is an eternally set number of redeemed, known only to God, and every single one of them will hear the gospel and will believe. "Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me . . . This is the will of the one who sent me—that I should not lose one person of every one he has given me, but raise them all up at the last day" (John 6:37, 39). Jesus in his prayer to the Father said, "You have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him" (John 17:1-2). This is why we find such passages as Acts 13:48, "And all who had been appointed for eternal life believed" (Act 13:48).
It is wrong to not preach the gospel: (1) by definition, insofar as sin is not doing what God commands (and doing what God forbids), and (2) because it is the means by which God had chosen to reach those for whom Christ died; "For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. How are they to call on one they have not believed in? And how are they to believe in one they have not heard of? And how are they to hear without someone preaching to them? And how are they to preach unless they are sent?" (Rom. 10:13-15); "We know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you, in that our gospel did not come to you merely in words, but in power and in the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction" (1Thess. 1:4-5); "For the message about the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God" (1 Cor. 1:18; cf. 2:4-5); and so forth.
(April 29, 2012 at 1:28 am)Godschild Wrote: [Edited.]
1. Is it a person's own fault that he goes to hell? Yes. Why wouldn't it be? God says that no one will be judged by what another does.
Wrong. Really, really wrong. The redeemed will be judged righteous precisely because of what another did, namely, Jesus Christ.
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)