RE: God, come out, come out wherever you are!
May 4, 2012 at 1:01 am
(This post was last modified: May 4, 2012 at 1:05 am by Tea Earl Grey Hot.)
(May 2, 2012 at 2:55 am)Godschild Wrote: I believe that free will is essential to Christianity, as essential as God's love is, and I do not think I need to elaborate on His love. If we are not free agents, and I believe God allows us to be, then God's love has no meaning for salvation. If we are not free agents, then why the sacrifice of Christ, God shows His love to us through this. In Christ's own words, "what greater love hath a man than to lay down his life for another". Your position was that God had to strike a balance between the saved and lost, and ultimately God saved those He chose and sent to hell those He did not choose, this is predestination, a determination before the cause. What would qualify this as predetermination, God's foreknowledge, He would have known the ones He would choose and in that choosing leave man completely out of any decision.
Again, the view I expressed is not deterministic. It's a view used by libertarians. I can't help it if comes off sounding deterministic but there's not a better libertarian solution that I know of.
(May 2, 2012 at 2:55 am)Godschild Wrote: Foreknowledge is not predetermination. Just because God has foreknowledge of all history, and that history will come to pass, doesn't pose a problem for free will. The individuals in that history are free to make their decision as they see fit. Notice decision is in the singular, one decision that all are free to make, salvation. Outside of salvation it's ultimately up to God, through His will.
Ok, let's assume that everyone has free will. Why does one person with free will freely accept Christ as their savior, and another person freely rejects Christ? What's different about the two people that would result in them making two different free choices?
(May 2, 2012 at 2:55 am)Godschild Wrote: Again knowing, determining and whatever has nothing to do with us choosing God or not choosing God, simple really.
You may be right on that. I have to continue to study that point and may return to it.

(May 3, 2012 at 6:30 pm)Paul the Human Wrote: ...
The name of this thread calls your god out of hiding, but the discussion that follows makes it clear that he is hidden in the distraction of the details. Everyone arguing about how the whole godverse works, rather than the existence of a god at all.
...
I'm going to try to get the thread back on the topic of why doesn't God show himself eventually.

My ignore list
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).