Science + Creation

[Aiza]

post

Sigh. Just say "No I cannot name any source for my aformentioned 'rumblings' and I cannot give any concrete examples of what I would consider a change".

Otherwise we are just going in circles with you dancing around vague accusations and meaningless and transparent equivocations with absolutely nothing substantial.

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Apo, I want the Church sanctioning murder of Jewish folk wholesale. You are giving me the full history of Christian anti-Semitism, including the murdering of Jews by Catholics, and I am aware of all of it, but yet none of the actual wholesale murders were at all sanctioned by the Catholic Church. Keep in mind sanctioned means to Give official permission or approval for it. The only mass murder incident by Catholics (ie the murders during the Crusades, which you so kindly bolded/underlined) were expressly condemned by Pope Calixtus II and many other Popes throughout the Middle Ages:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis

Which you would know if you had bothered to research.

You seem to have copy+pasted everything you could (btw, religioustolerance.org has terrible fact checking, I'd be wary about using them as any sort of source) but neglected to answer the actual question. When did the Catholic Church sanction murder of Jewish folk wholesale? Give me the exact Papal or Ecumenical document with said sanctions on wholesale murder. It could be a one sentence post.

The ghettoization of Jewish folk is an extremely ugly and terrible thing. But it isn't "wholesale murder" which is what you said that the Catholic Church sanctioned.

What the exact role of the pope during the Nazi atrocities was is not known in depth, though there were some good things he, or the church, did. However, below is a list of less salable items

Wow. Very cherry picked items, at that. First of all Venerable Pope Pius XII was not even the Pope on Kritallnacht ("NOV 1938"). He was still Cardinal Pacelli until March 1939. So right off the bat, I need to ask: "what?"

Here's a bit of Ven. Pope Pius XII's history through WWII, all from wikipedia:

In the 1937 encyclical Mit brennender Sorge, drafted by Pope Pius XII when he was still a cardinal,[67] Pope Pius XI denounced Nazism and breaches of the Reichskonkordat. Read from the pulpits of all German Catholic churches, it has been described as the first official denunciation of Nazism made by any major organization.[68] Nazi persecution of the Church in Germany then began by "outright repression" and "staged prosecutions of monks for homosexuality, with the maximum of publicity."[133] When Dutch bishops protested against the deportation of Jews, the Nazis responded by deporting Jewish converts, including Edith Stein.[68]

In 1939, the newly elected Pope Pius XII appointed several prominent Jewish scholars to posts at the Vatican after they had been dismissed from Italian universities under Fascist leader Benito Mussolini's racial laws.[170]

Cardinal Secretary of State Luigi Maglione received a request from Chief Rabbi of Palestine Isaac Herzog in the spring of 1940 to intercede on behalf of Lithuanian Jews about to be deported to Germany.[46] Pius called Ribbentrop on 11 March, repeatedly protesting against the treatment of Jews.[140] In his 1939 encyclical Summi Pontificatus, Pius rejected anti-semitism, stating that in the Catholic Church there is "neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision."[172] In 1940, Pius asked members of the clergy, on Vatican letterhead, to do whatever they could on behalf of interned Jews.[173]

In 1942, the Slovakian chargé d'affaires told Pius that Slovakian Jews were being sent to concentration camps.[174] On 11 March 1942, several days before the first transport was due to leave, the chargé d'affaires in Bratislava reported to the Vatican: "I have been assured that this atrocious plan is the handwork of ... Prime Minister (Tuka), who confirmed the plan ... he dared to tell me — he who makes such a show of his Catholicism — that he saw nothing inhuman or un-Christian in it ... the deportation of 80,000 persons to Poland, is equivalent to condemning a great number of them to certain death." The Vatican protested to the Slovak government that it "deplore(s) these... measures which gravely hurt the natural human rights of persons, merely because of their race."[183]

In late 1942, Pius XII advised German and Hungarian bishops to speak out against the massacres on the Eastern Front.[191] In his 1942 Christmas Eve message, he expressed strong concern for "those hundreds of thousands, who ... sometimes only by reason of their nationality or race, are marked down for death or progressive extinction.[192]

n 26 September 1943, following the German occupation of northern Italy, Nazi officials gave Jewish leaders in Rome 36 hours to produce 50 kilograms of gold (or the equivalent) threatening to take 300 hostages. Then Chief Rabbi of Rome Israel Zolli recounts in his memoir that he was selected to go to the Vatican and seek help.[195] The Vatican offered to loan 15 kilos, but the offer proved unnecessary when the Jews received an extension.[196] Soon afterward, when deportations from Italy were imminent, 477 Jews were hidden in the Vatican itself and another 4,238 were protected in Roman monasteries and convents.[197] Eighty percent of Roman Jews were saved from deportation.[198]

In March 1944, through the papal nuncio in Budapest, Angelo Rotta, the pope urged the Hungarian government to moderate its treatment of the Jews.[203] The pope ordered Rotta and other papal legates to hide and shelter Jews.[204] These protests, along with others from the King of Sweden, the International Red Cross, the United States, and Britain led to the cessation of deportations on 8 July 1944.[205] Also in 1944, Pius appealed to 13 Latin American governments to accept "emergency passports", although it also took the intervention of the U.S. State Department for those countries to honor the documents.[206] The Kaltenbrunner Report to Hitler, dated 29 November 1944, against the backdrop of the 20 July 1944 Plot to assassinate Hitler, states that the Pope was somehow a conspirator, specifically naming Eugenio Pacelli (Pope Pius XII), as being a party in the attempt.[207]

So lets see, he hid Jewish people in the Vatican, arranged for emergency passports for many more, expressly condemned anti-Semitism and genocide on mutliple occasions, ordered clergy to do whatever they could to help Jewish people, and authored the very first condmenation of Nazi Germany by any major institution (at a time when he had many supporters in the US). All this while engulfed by facist Italy at the same time. And it already was a sin for Catholics to "slaughter" anyone, mind, and going against the Church results in automatic excommunication, so um....either you are being rather dishonest or whatever site you copy+pasted that from is being rather dishonest (as if it wasn't already for accusing Pope Pius XII for not speaking out at Kristallnacht, ffs) .