(August 16, 2012 at 10:04 am)spockrates Wrote: Sounds much like Reformed Theology to me. Calvin would be proud!
1. It does not fit with certain passages of the Bible that contradict it. Seems to me a Christian should adopt a position that is consistent with the books they profess to be divine in origin.
2. The goal of God according to most Christian views is to promote love among people for each other and for him. It seems to me love is impossible without freedom of will.
I would not expect you to defend (1), so let's consider (2). Please explain how a person could freely love God without the freedom to choose to not love him.
I wasn't aware I was presenting a purely Calvinist view, rather one that seemed to follow logically from the proclaimed properties of God. If God has these properties then hard determinism follows, as far as I can tell.
I won't try to defend against 1., because I don't care how often the Bible contradicts itself. 2., however, is just another form of 1.; basically, Xtians will tell you their God is loving and promotes love, contradicting free will. But wait, why is love something you must choose? Regardless, that doesn't really matter.
Love supposedly contradicts the qualities their God (sometimes) has, like omniscience and the ability to make a universe. If God had free will at the time of creation it follows that we didn't and vice versa. Neither one nor two contradict my arguments. Defining God out of this dilemma is an option, as is forfeiting free will and all that comes with it.
To defeat this, you must
1. Redefine your God, or simply arrogantly tell me I have defined him wrong and the passages I used to do so somehow didn't mean what they say.
or,
2. Concede the argument, giving up your free will as an illusion.
My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true.
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell