(August 19, 2012 at 3:19 pm)spockrates Wrote: Yes, an example of precognition is fortune telling. I agree that the God concept is understood to be able to do more than simply foretell what the future will be, and so predestine some outcomes. But I don't think the concept necessarily requires the removal of the freedom of choice from one so predestined.Regardless of what you think, I believe my argument speaks for itself. Freewill of any kind isn't possible in a world that a God created if that God knows everything and has a choice in what worlds he can create.
Quote:An omnipotent God might guide or limit the choices of individuals, but as long as they always have a choice between two or more alternatives, they still have the freedom to choose.Yes, but there wouldn't be more than one choice. There would be an illusion of choice, but no choice could be made because the action you are going to take has already, directly or indirectly, been chosen by the God who created that world. You can choose, sure, but your choice was already known and ingrained into you before you chose it.
Quote:Such a God might isolate people who make choices contrary to his desires, or remove people altogether (by bringing about their deaths, or removing them from a position of power, for example) but they would still be free to choose their own actions, even though their actions would not prevent the final outcomes this God desires.When you say "such a God" what do you mean? Don't get stuck on this omniscient shit again, please. I thought we had finally shed that smelly carcass of a discussion. Give your God whatever attributes you want/that you believe to be correct and lets move on. You already said omniscience isn't logical, and we agree. Lets ditch that and get on to the meat of the discussion.
The actions they take all lead to the outcome of that God. We aren't talking about an interventionist God in any sense other than that he created the world. This God knows everything beforehand, so why would he create a world he would have to alter? No, he would pick the world of his choosing thus determining the choices of every sentient creature in it.
Quote: I suppose an apt illustration would be a rat in a maze. The maze might be the limits God places on the life of someone--where he is born, who his parents are, what intelligence he has, what wealth he obtains. The outcome (a dead end or an exit from the maze and a tasty cheese treat) would be up to the rat. The rat cannot choose the maze, or the treat at the end, but she can choose the direction she will take and whether she ends up at a dead end, or with the reward at the exit.This analogy is faulty because the researchers we are talking about didn't create the rat to a precise genetic T from which they knew every action it would take, ever. They didn't choose to make a different rat, meaning choice was involved on their part and not the rats, effectively making all the rat's choices for it throughout it's life. I suppose the researchers would have to make an artificial environment as well, so it's not a perfect analogy, but I think you'll see the point.
If they chose the rat's every action throughout it's entire life and it's environment, knowing they were doing so all the time, then we would have an analogy.
My conclusion is that there is no reason to believe any of the dogmas of traditional theology and, further, that there is no reason to wish that they were true.
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell
Man, in so far as he is not subject to natural forces, is free to work out his own destiny. The responsibility is his, and so is the opportunity.
-Bertrand Russell