RE: Better reasons to quit Christianity
August 27, 2012 at 12:10 pm
(This post was last modified: August 27, 2012 at 12:34 pm by Mister Agenda.)
(August 25, 2012 at 7:57 am)spockrates Wrote:(August 24, 2012 at 12:08 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: I'm not sure, but the last way I would go about it would be to have it as an oral history passed down through generations (OT) or decades (NT) before anyone wrote it down, and not preserve any of the original documents so that even those are lost to time.
Why do you think it oral, rather than written?
I read books.
(August 25, 2012 at 9:47 am)spockrates Wrote: Why? Well, if I don't assume the possibility that God exists, then I've already made up my mind that God is non-existent, I think. As I've repeatedly said, I have not made up my mind, yet.
Congratulations, you are an unconvinced agnostic atheist!
(August 25, 2012 at 9:55 am)spockrates Wrote: Please tell me the difference between precognition and prediction, and then please explain how omniscience is the same as (or different from) each. This is necessary, I think.
Only if I want to change your mind. I plead with you not to. And I have nothing to add to what Rhythm has said on the matter.
(August 25, 2012 at 10:36 am)spockrates Wrote: Mister:
What I wonder is this: Does having a power necessitate that the power one has must be used to its fullest extent?
Only if the power is omniscience. Omnipotence is (roughly, due to debate on what it really means) the power to do anything. Omnibenevolence is the desire and capability to be totally benevolent. Omniscience is literally, knowledge of everything. Under your scheme, God knows everything God wants to know, which could be a very far cry from everything. Seems the leg you've decided to cut off the tripod of theodicy is omniscience. A valid choice, and fine for a Christian as long as you continue to pretend that limited omniscience isn't an oxymoron.
(August 25, 2012 at 10:36 am)spockrates Wrote: For he would not have the freedom to limit his omniscience so as to preserve our freedom. It seems God would have less freedom than the police officer who chose to not give me a speeding ticket!
If Christians were more careful about what attributes they assign to their imaginary friend, they wouldn't run into these contradictions. So what does 'inherent' mean in this context, in contrast with 'total'. 'Omni' literally means 'all', which is quite compatible with 'total' and nothing to do with inherent. 'Inherent' seems to be a code-word for 'less-than-omni'.
(August 25, 2012 at 11:48 am)spockrates Wrote: So, Mister:
Do you think it reasonable to say this? Yes, God does have the omniscience to allow him to completely obliterate our freewill, but he (in keeping in character with his omnibenevolence) chooses to exercise his omnipotence by limiting his omniscience so as to allow us to freely choose to love one another, as he freely chooses to love us.
If someone closes their eyes before firing a gun, they are still responsible for where the bullet winds up. All you have here is a precognitive God who sets up the initial conditions but chooses not to know all the ramifications and consequences. Unless the future is unknowable in principle, determinism is the case, whether God know how everything will turn out or not.
(August 25, 2012 at 10:36 am)spockrates Wrote: Unless you have something to add, I believe this satisfies the question for me of it being impossible for God to be omniscient, given that we have free will. That does still leave the question of whether God is actually omnibenevolent. If he is a monster, he is not worthy of being imitated, or loved, I think. If you want to move one, we can address the question: Is God really omnibenevolent? If not, we can continue to think through the question: "How can God be omniscient if we have freewill?"
The important thing is that you are satisfied. As far as omnibenevolence goes, how is that compatible with a God who can choose a better future, is capable of seeing it, but chooses not to know it? The very thing you've offered to salvage your God's omnibenevolence (that he only knows what he chooses to know), undermines it.
