Better reasons to quit Christianity

[spockrates]

But regarding the voting illustration, please explain how it is analogous to omniscience and freewill. I'm not sure I see the connection, yet.

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Well, I'm not trying to refute anyone, except perhaps myself! I am trying to understand why others believe and question why they believe to see if why they believe is why I should question why I believe so that I might believe why they believe, too.



But please elaborate on why alternative possibilities are unnecessary for one to be free. Or perhaps it will help if I give a simple example and you explain how the one making the free choice had no alternative.

Young Spock! WHY do you NEED to be part of the herd
/ hive mind?

Also, WHY do you question? If not for the FACT that the current answers do not fit with YOUR observations?

I would hazard young Spock... that you have come to the conclusion that religion is not only man-made and detrimental to the progress of society (as a global whole) but is also filled with such childish fantasies that you yourself left behind along with your teddy, Santa and security blanket many ages ago (ok, then maybe a few years ago) And there fore an illogical position to maintain in the face of evidence to the contrary.

Yes, you've found me out! It's illogical, I admit. But tribbles are so--alluring.

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But regarding the voting illustration, please explain how it is analogous to omniscience and freewill. I'm not sure I see the connection, yet.

I do not think there is a connection, the answer to the free will problem was answered in Genesis, the answer came when Adam and Eve chose the fruit over obedience to God. The only true free will man has is to chose to love God or reject Him, this is the example that was laid out for us in Genesis when Adam and Eve rejected God and chose knowledge to be God's equal. When they acquired the knowledge, they understood they could never be God's equal and for the first time feared God because they understood His true greatness and righteousness. This is why they were hiding from God and God called out to them in compassion, He knew (omniscience) what had happened, He knew even before they made their choice. Anything outside our choice to love or reject God we have only limited freedom, God is in control of His creation. With the free will to chose or reject God, we have many choices to make during our lives and the closer we grow to God the less those choices become, necessarily. So God can be and is omniscient and we have the free will He intended for us to have. If we had total free will God would not be in control of His creation, the example of that is Adam and Eve, they in one moment screwed it all up, what would happen if God continued to allow man to do as he please, flood the world?

Thanks, GC. Good to hear from you again, my friend!

I believe the argument is this: Since God knew ahead of time that Eve would choose to take a bite, she could never choose to not take a bite. For if she did instead choose to abstain from biting, then what God saw would happen would actually not be what happened. So our idea and that he is omniscient would prove to be not real, but imagined.

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GC:

So there was quite a bit of discussion about what omniscience means. It turns out that several believed the word to mean this:

Omniscience ( /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/[1]), mainly in religion, is actually knowing everything that there is to know.

But the definition I found many thoughtful Christians hold is this:

Omniscience ( /ɒmˈnɪʃəns/[1]), mainly in religion, is the capacity to know everything that there is to know.

Having the capacity to know is not the same as actually knowing. You know?

So let us apply the second idea to Eve taking a bite out of sin: It is possible that God might have known ahead of time that Eve would have the choice to bite, or not to bite. It's also possible God would have had the choice to see, or not to see Eve's decision. So God, abstaining from knowing ahead of time would not know ahead of time whether she took a bite, or abstained. Thus, Eve's decision was still free.

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Now, Rhythm tells me I'm wrong, and says that God's knowing she might bite, or might not bite is all he needs to know to destroy her freedom to choose. I'm still waiting for him to explain why he believes this. It seems to me that if I'm understanding him correctly, then no one is free--whether God exists, or not. For one does not need to be omniscient to see when someone has a choice to make.