RE: Like it or not, God is immoral.
September 15, 2012 at 9:53 pm
(This post was last modified: September 15, 2012 at 10:02 pm by Drich.)
[quote='genkaus' pid='337050' dateline='1347752589']
There is no proof of god outside or inside the bible. But we are not talking about proof here. [/quote] We are talking about defining God. God has only ever defined Himself in the bible. Making the bible the only source in which to find an accurate repersentation of God, by God Himself. Hope that clear things up. You seem to be blurring the lines away from what has been orginally stated.
[quote]But since they have gone beyond the scripture, it cannot be treated as the sole source of god's definition. [/quote]You are confusing source material with a commentary. Just because someone has an opinion does not make them a source.
[quote]And since there has been so much of that extrapolation and interpretation, the bible no longer remains the sole source of your god's definition. [/quote] again, you have confused a commentary or secondary source of information with the true or orginal source.
[quote]I did. And there is no indication there that it means anything other "morally upright" [/quote]are you being obstinate or ignorant? Defination 1:b identifies the Hebrew word: tsĕdaqah/צְדָקָה as an attribute of God.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...6666&t=KJV
[quote]And on what basis are you picking or choosing? Not on the basis of the lexicon - there is none. In all the instances the word is used, it has not been shown to mean anything different than being moral. [/quote] Your either lying or you have not looked.
[quote]Done the google. Seen your link. There is no indication even in your link that the word is not synonymous to being moral. [/quote]Again show me where i said that righteousness could not mean morality.
[quote]Do this one first. Show me where the lexicon distinguishes between righteous as god's attribute and being moral as god's attribute. [/quote]
1) justice, righteousness
a) righteousness (in government)
b) righteousness (of God's attribute)
1) of judge, ruler, king
2) of law
3) of Davidic king Messiah
c) righteousness (in a case or cause)
d) righteousness, truthfulness
e) righteousness (as ethically right)
f) righteousness (as vindicated), justification, salvation
1) of God
2) prosperity (of people)
g) righteous acts
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...6666&t=KJV
[quote]"That is why God describes Himself as Righteous. Righteousness is not morality. Morality is man's (Flawed) attempt at his personal version of Righteousness."[/quote]
I don't see how you have confused the two statements. where are you confused? Never mind your next paragraph answers my question.
[quote]Not at all. I've always said that being righteous is another way of saying moral and therefore righteousness is just another way of saying morality. [/quote] In the Orginal Hebrew defination, where is your statement spelled out? I see that Righteousness is God's standard. I see where Righteousness is attributed as a quality or attribute of God, and I can see how something ethically right can be considered Righteous. However I do not see anything in the Hebrew defination provided, that allows you to make the jump, and say everything that is moral is righteous. Moral things CAN be considered righteous,(if they are "ethically right") as defined by scripture, but there is nothing that says that morality and righteousness is the same thing. A good example would be the things in soceity that are considered morally right, but not all things soceity deems morally right, is Righteous or ethically right by God's standard. (like gay marriage) This is a perfect example where man's morality conflicts with God's righteous standard or God's righteousness. This also PROOVES the two terms are Not interchangable.
[quote]Sounds like a concept particularly applicable to your god. He has more blood on his hand that any creature - living or dead and he talks about his own position as that of absolute righteousness. The only difference is, he is not rotting in prison - but should be.[/quote]
This is A PERFECT Example of the level of self righteousness needed to judge God. Change nothing!
[quote='greneknight' pid='337072' dateline='1347757165']
[quote]Nonsense! Of course I can use the Bible to discredit your belief. I don't believe in the daft Bible. You believe in it. You base your faith on the Bible. I have every right to show you that from your own book, your faith has no basis.[/quote]Redherring. I never said any of this.
[quote]Right now, I am showing you that there is no basis in the first place to trust the Bible on that other thread but you are being very evasive. I will be Rumpole and get you to answer the questions soon enough.
[/quote]what are you talking about?
[quote]As you can see, you are terribly evasive and to this moment you refuse to answer my simple question: Since you set much store by the Bible, what is your basis for saying that the 66 books of the Holy Bible are the word of God and all other books including the Apocrypha and the Book of Mormon aren't?[/quote]Why do you believe that I said they weren't the words of God? Do you not know how to have a conversation or discussion beyond your rehersed and practiced arguements? Are you at a complete loss for words if i do not follow the path you are expecting? Here a hint on what you should do: ASK A Question.
It's simple to ask a question don't you think?
There is no proof of god outside or inside the bible. But we are not talking about proof here. [/quote] We are talking about defining God. God has only ever defined Himself in the bible. Making the bible the only source in which to find an accurate repersentation of God, by God Himself. Hope that clear things up. You seem to be blurring the lines away from what has been orginally stated.
[quote]But since they have gone beyond the scripture, it cannot be treated as the sole source of god's definition. [/quote]You are confusing source material with a commentary. Just because someone has an opinion does not make them a source.
[quote]And since there has been so much of that extrapolation and interpretation, the bible no longer remains the sole source of your god's definition. [/quote] again, you have confused a commentary or secondary source of information with the true or orginal source.
[quote]I did. And there is no indication there that it means anything other "morally upright" [/quote]are you being obstinate or ignorant? Defination 1:b identifies the Hebrew word: tsĕdaqah/צְדָקָה as an attribute of God.
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...6666&t=KJV
[quote]And on what basis are you picking or choosing? Not on the basis of the lexicon - there is none. In all the instances the word is used, it has not been shown to mean anything different than being moral. [/quote] Your either lying or you have not looked.
[quote]Done the google. Seen your link. There is no indication even in your link that the word is not synonymous to being moral. [/quote]Again show me where i said that righteousness could not mean morality.
[quote]Do this one first. Show me where the lexicon distinguishes between righteous as god's attribute and being moral as god's attribute. [/quote]
1) justice, righteousness
a) righteousness (in government)
b) righteousness (of God's attribute)
1) of judge, ruler, king
2) of law
3) of Davidic king Messiah
c) righteousness (in a case or cause)
d) righteousness, truthfulness
e) righteousness (as ethically right)
f) righteousness (as vindicated), justification, salvation
1) of God
2) prosperity (of people)
g) righteous acts
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexi...6666&t=KJV
[quote]"That is why God describes Himself as Righteous. Righteousness is not morality. Morality is man's (Flawed) attempt at his personal version of Righteousness."[/quote]
I don't see how you have confused the two statements. where are you confused? Never mind your next paragraph answers my question.
[quote]Not at all. I've always said that being righteous is another way of saying moral and therefore righteousness is just another way of saying morality. [/quote] In the Orginal Hebrew defination, where is your statement spelled out? I see that Righteousness is God's standard. I see where Righteousness is attributed as a quality or attribute of God, and I can see how something ethically right can be considered Righteous. However I do not see anything in the Hebrew defination provided, that allows you to make the jump, and say everything that is moral is righteous. Moral things CAN be considered righteous,(if they are "ethically right") as defined by scripture, but there is nothing that says that morality and righteousness is the same thing. A good example would be the things in soceity that are considered morally right, but not all things soceity deems morally right, is Righteous or ethically right by God's standard. (like gay marriage) This is a perfect example where man's morality conflicts with God's righteous standard or God's righteousness. This also PROOVES the two terms are Not interchangable.
[quote]Sounds like a concept particularly applicable to your god. He has more blood on his hand that any creature - living or dead and he talks about his own position as that of absolute righteousness. The only difference is, he is not rotting in prison - but should be.[/quote]
This is A PERFECT Example of the level of self righteousness needed to judge God. Change nothing!
[quote='greneknight' pid='337072' dateline='1347757165']
[quote]Nonsense! Of course I can use the Bible to discredit your belief. I don't believe in the daft Bible. You believe in it. You base your faith on the Bible. I have every right to show you that from your own book, your faith has no basis.[/quote]Redherring. I never said any of this.
[quote]Right now, I am showing you that there is no basis in the first place to trust the Bible on that other thread but you are being very evasive. I will be Rumpole and get you to answer the questions soon enough.
[/quote]what are you talking about?[quote]As you can see, you are terribly evasive and to this moment you refuse to answer my simple question: Since you set much store by the Bible, what is your basis for saying that the 66 books of the Holy Bible are the word of God and all other books including the Apocrypha and the Book of Mormon aren't?[/quote]Why do you believe that I said they weren't the words of God? Do you not know how to have a conversation or discussion beyond your rehersed and practiced arguements? Are you at a complete loss for words if i do not follow the path you are expecting? Here a hint on what you should do: ASK A Question.
It's simple to ask a question don't you think?
