There is no god or gods!

[Dranu]

If we assume no god, then the creation of the universe is a mystery. If we assume a god, the cause of this god is even more mysterious than the cause of the universe.

I'll assume my assesment of the discussion earlier was correct so we can move on to the Ontological argument and this issue of causality. The universe does not need a cause/reason if it is infinite (it would be God by my deifnition), and if its not God does not need a cause/reason. They would be internally non-contingent beings and thus self-explanatory. So yes, if the creation of the universe is a mystery if we assume no God (and assuem the universe is not God), but it is not really a mystery (at least logically) if God caused it or it is God.

One cannot argue that god exists by his own definition, because 1.I could use this to prove the Flying Spaghetti Monster

No, unless by flying spaghetti monster you mean the infinite being. In which case I'll just say you have an awfully cute name for God, but mean God nonetheless.

and 2. If we do not assume that god does or does not exist, then his definition is not enough to prove his existence. You cannot say "X exists because I define X as 'something that must exist'". If you do, then anything you make up (like Flying Spaghetti Monster) can be X and can prove itself by that logic.

But I can. If God's existence follows from an argument, and you agree all the premises are true, then you have to accept he exists as a matter of logic (if you hold to logic and reason at least; unlike Spence96 ). Although most people accept the premises of the Ontological argument when posed with it without knowing the outcome, surely there will be debate over their truth here, and surely this thread will become an ontological argument thread.... if you wish to discuss it anyhow.

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reason demands a reason for its cause.

Just because the human mind cannot conceive of something does not mean that the universe has to conform to that view.

You can deny reason if you want, but that would end our discussion as I tend to stick with logic when talking. I do not deny mysteries of the universe, but I do deny the claim that reason and logic do not apply to everything.