(September 21, 2009 at 7:01 pm)ecolox Wrote: Devotion to just gods - or being good because the gods are good. What is being devout to just gods to you? How could it be anything different than what I am "equivocating".
I never mentioned just gods, I mentioned gods. Whether the gods that are believed in are just or not, depends on the person. My point is even if you believe in a just God, how do you have any monopoly on morality exactly? How can atheists not be moral?
Give me one example of a moral act that cannot be done by an atheist.
ecolox Wrote:If you chose to believe in just gods, then how could being devout be anything other than being good in this case? Why wouldn't the just gods want you to be good first?
You are yet to explain, how worshipping God, how being devout=Good. No, why would being devout to a truly just God, be the first thing on his list? If you can be good without believing in God - as I believe you can, and will continue to believe until you evidence that believing in God makes you any more moral - then would not morality itself, be the real priority on a truly just God's list? Rather than whether you believe in him, worship him, or are "Devout" to him or not?
eclolox Wrote:How are you deciding that good is simply better? Doesn't being good require a person to sacrifice themselves or their means? Why would someone give up their own? Can anyone "just be good", without any ultimate reason? Isn't that irrational? It would be like a partial suicide, at the very least - and if they gave themselves up completely (without any ultimate reason) it would be like suicide, wouldn't it?
I am talking about being a moral person, and morality in general. I personally believe, that what I personally believe to be moral, to be a good thing, I think morality is important. I never mentioned objective, or "ultimate" morality, I'm speaking in a subjective sense - I know of no evidence for objective morality. I don't believe there is any ultimate reason, but just as some people do what we, being good people, subjectively judge to be horribly immoral acts - such as the immorality of murder and rape for example - by those same subjective methods of judging those who are immoral, we also judge those who moral. Why is objective morality, required to be moral? Answer: It isn't. There is only evidence that anyone has ever judged morality subjectively, and that there are only subjective morals. As far as I'm aware anyway, I mean, unless you can enlighten me.
If you want to see that as not true morality because it's not objective, or "ultimate", then that's your problem, sorry.
ecolox Wrote:Again, by what standard? Being bad is easy to justify (so long as you avoid getting in trouble) - it means taking real benefits (that you can see and feel) that aren't yours or that aren't anyones that you know of (but that may be against the gods' wishes). This is inline with individual survival/livelihood - which is ultimately all an individual atheist has, right? It means acting in favor of yourself. It means acting with the goal of "winning" benefits. What rules are there to prevent competition on every front (whether it be winning through thievery or through consensual deals)?
There are those of us who, indeed, do genuinely wants to help others, even if it does no good to ourselves. Because we care, because we feel empathy. We feel our feelings through ourselves, yes (how else would we feel?) - if you call that selfish, so be it. Any caring you experience yourself, or others experience, exists with or without God, empathy exists with our without. If you claim that ,true morality only exists if God does, then you need to evidence that. If you claim that morality, is only true morality if it's objective, then you can see it that way if you want, but that's just your opinion, unless you can back it up with evidence.
You can't claim the moral high-ground over atheists, until you evidence that God exists, because otherwise all you've got is belief in God, without any reason to believe the belief is actually true.
If you miraculously managed to evidence God, then you'd also have to evidence how he's good, and how devoting yourself to him makes you any more moral, or how atheists aren't, etc.
ecolox Wrote:Could being devoted to just gods be anything other than Good? If someone is un-devoted to just gods, then how can they be good (or as you say "better")?
I didn't say that you can be better by being un-devoted. You took my usage of the word "better" out of context there.
If the just God doesn't actually exist, then in believing in him you are merely operating by a delusional belief...that isn't exactly "good" in my mind.
And also, you are still yet to show why being devoted is good, you are still yet to show that being "devoted" to God makes you any more moral.
[quote=ecolox]It is your belief that you will be destroyed, along with anyone who may remember you - right? If these entities are not headed towards destruction (as I thought your belief necessitated), where are they going?
No, it is not my belief that I will be destroyed. It is my belief that I will die, by whatever means that will be, and that there is no afterlife. But, my disbelief in the afterlife, is not part of the definition of atheism, I can still be an atheist and believe in the afterlife. It is just that I personally don't, I myself dismiss the afterlife claim, for the very same reason I dismiss the God claim: No evidence. No my atheism doesn't necessitate it, it is just very common for atheists to disbelieve in an afterlife, probably due to 1. Most reasons for believing in afterlife in the first place are religious, and 2. A lot of atheists (myself included) probably reject the afterlife claim, for the same reason that they reject the God claim: No evidence (as I do, as I said above).
Rhizo on these forums is an example of an exception to the general, he apparently believes in souls, and also, an afterlife, in spite of his his atheism.
EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:No. Different atheists disbelieve for a number of different reasons. I myself don't believe because I know of no evidence.
ecolox Wrote:I see. Our existence is evidence of something though, isn't it?
Yes it is, it's self-evidence...of our existence. Evidence for God? No, not that I'm aware of, no.
EvF
