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Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between?
#72
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between?
(December 2, 2012 at 1:31 am)Daniel Wrote: ^ That's because the literal meaning of arsenokoites is "male prostitute". Again, if this is what Paul really means then why does he use porne just a couple of sentences later in the same letter?

I might just add that there is no Ancient Greek word for "homosexual" so how else would you expect Paul to form a coherent sentence forbidding the practise?

I never said "male prostitute" was *the* meaning of the arsenokoites. That is one of a few possibilities that have been suggested.

Porne, as I said, doesn't strictly mean prostitution. That's what it may literally mean but it's usage throughout the NT and other documents suggested simply "sexual immorality."

These two paragraphs explain the arguments well:

Quote:There have been two major suggestions about the meaning of Paul's terns. One, put forward by Robin Scroggs, proposes that malakoi and arsenokoitai functioned together as Greek equivalents to technical terminology in rabbinic Hebrew that designated, respectively, the penetrated and penetrative partners in anal intercourse. The terms, on this interpretation, would have been closely tied to the purity law of Leviticus and its interpretation in the scribal tradition.50 The other suggestion, made by John Boswell, holds that there was no intrinsic connection between malakoi and arsenokoitai, that the former word, if it had anything at all do with sexual activity, meant "masturbators," and that the latter was probably a vulgar expression meaning "male prostitutes." If this is correct, it would be unclear whether Paul's use of the term was meant to condemn them for same-gender sexual acts or for acts of prostitution or both.51

Scroggs's argument implies that the two terms malakoi and arsenokoitai should form an invariable pair because neither would have the same import without the other. Yet in its one other occurrence in the New Testament, arsenokoitai appears without malakoi and is associated rather with "those given to harlotry" and "kidnappers" (1 Tim. 1: 10). Furthermore, if Paul was indeed employing technical terminology used in the synagogue and reaffirming it in the context of the church, we should expect knowledge of this usage to continue, but the later record is at best mixed, with little evidence for arsenokoites as meaning anything like "homosexual."52 Then, too, Scroggs's hypothesis is complex, requiring us to understand the vocabulary in terms of a double linguistic and cultural tradition, whereas Boswell's hypothesis stays entirely within the bounds of the Greek-speaking world. This does not prove that Scroggs is mistaken, but, other considerations being at least equal, the simpler hypothesis is preferable.53 More recently, Dale B. Martin has presented strong arguments against the linking of the two words and has demonstrated once again that we simply do not have any adequate evidence to tell us what arsenokoites meant.

L. William Countryman. Dirt, Greed, and Sex: Sexual Ethics in the New Testament and Their Implications for Today (Kindle Locations 1689-1700). Kindle Edition.
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"The lord doesn't work in mysterious ways, but in ways that are indistinguishable from his nonexistence."
-- George Yorgo Veenhuyzen quoted by John W. Loftus in The End of Christianity (p. 103).
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Messages In This Thread
Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 30, 2012 at 3:48 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Shell B - November 30, 2012 at 3:51 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 30, 2012 at 4:03 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by frankiej - November 30, 2012 at 4:08 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - November 30, 2012 at 4:14 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 30, 2012 at 4:22 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - November 30, 2012 at 4:28 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - November 30, 2012 at 4:14 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by frankiej - November 30, 2012 at 4:17 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by frankiej - November 30, 2012 at 4:23 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Shell B - November 30, 2012 at 4:46 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 30, 2012 at 4:28 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 30, 2012 at 4:30 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - November 30, 2012 at 4:33 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 1, 2012 at 9:12 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - December 1, 2012 at 11:40 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 1, 2012 at 9:15 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by JohnDG - November 30, 2012 at 4:38 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - November 30, 2012 at 4:44 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by JohnDG - November 30, 2012 at 4:47 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - November 30, 2012 at 4:56 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by JohnDG - November 30, 2012 at 4:59 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - November 30, 2012 at 5:10 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by JohnDG - November 30, 2012 at 5:15 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - November 30, 2012 at 5:23 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 30, 2012 at 8:57 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 30, 2012 at 11:04 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by JohnDG - December 1, 2012 at 3:58 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Creed of Heresy - December 1, 2012 at 11:53 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 1, 2012 at 9:23 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 1, 2012 at 10:12 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 1, 2012 at 10:18 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 1, 2012 at 10:23 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 1, 2012 at 11:20 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Whateverist - December 1, 2012 at 2:13 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Gilgamesh - November 30, 2012 at 5:59 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Shell B - November 30, 2012 at 5:23 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by JohnDG - November 30, 2012 at 5:27 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Shell B - November 30, 2012 at 5:36 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Dee Dee Ramone - November 30, 2012 at 5:30 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by JohnDG - November 30, 2012 at 5:38 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Minimalist - November 30, 2012 at 5:43 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - November 30, 2012 at 5:55 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Vincenzo Vinny G. - November 30, 2012 at 11:31 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by LastPoet - December 1, 2012 at 3:35 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Darth - December 1, 2012 at 4:44 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by LastPoet - December 1, 2012 at 4:31 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Violet - December 4, 2012 at 5:55 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Tiberius - December 1, 2012 at 5:06 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Darth - December 1, 2012 at 7:00 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by thesummerqueen - December 1, 2012 at 8:42 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Shell B - December 1, 2012 at 12:30 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by thesummerqueen - December 1, 2012 at 9:27 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Whateverist - December 1, 2012 at 9:38 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 2, 2012 at 12:05 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 2, 2012 at 12:11 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 2, 2012 at 12:49 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 2, 2012 at 12:56 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 2, 2012 at 1:05 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Shell B - December 2, 2012 at 12:59 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 2, 2012 at 1:31 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 2, 2012 at 2:54 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 2, 2012 at 6:07 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 2, 2012 at 9:31 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Darkstar - December 2, 2012 at 2:54 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by thesummerqueen - December 2, 2012 at 9:25 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Creed of Heresy - December 2, 2012 at 9:28 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Aractus - December 2, 2012 at 10:18 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Tea Earl Grey Hot - December 2, 2012 at 10:41 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - December 2, 2012 at 4:58 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by thesummerqueen - December 2, 2012 at 5:10 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Kousbroek - December 2, 2012 at 5:13 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by LastPoet - December 3, 2012 at 8:38 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Justtristo - December 3, 2012 at 9:12 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by thesummerqueen - December 3, 2012 at 9:14 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Dee Dee Ramone - December 3, 2012 at 9:25 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by thesummerqueen - December 3, 2012 at 9:22 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by LastPoet - December 4, 2012 at 4:46 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by LastPoet - December 4, 2012 at 4:49 pm
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Angrboda - December 5, 2012 at 5:37 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Great Ape - December 6, 2012 at 9:50 am
RE: Pro-porn, anti-porn or in between? - by Gooders1002 - December 8, 2012 at 10:46 pm

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