Putting God to the Test

[Fidel_Castronaut]

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". I have seen and read none, so by virtue I am skeptical and will continue to question and critique the claims until evidence is provided.

How can you continue to say you have seen no evidence of miracles when I provided you a site that records them. http://www.wcdn.org/wcdn_eng/case/divine_case_e.asp Like I said what more can a Christian do to prove miracles.

And I continue to retort to you that so-called eye witness accounts are not evidence. I refer you to my hypothetical above which you haven't responded to.

A conference of 200~ self-confessed believers, who happen to be doctors, and who happen to believe in miracles who also report to 'see' miracles screams of bias.

I am wholly skeptical of every claim that does not have repeatable, testable, and ultimately verifiable data to back it up, whether they be mundane drugs designed to alleviate minor illnesses, or miracles that claim to ressurect people from the dead.

Many people here keep saying, "Why don't you show evidence", or "where are the records". They are there on that site.

No, they're not. It is clear that we have vastly different perceptions of what we see as evidence. I mean this as no insult when I say I have set the bar considerably higher than you.

Not every miracle that has ever been performed has medical records, or has the permission of the person to publish it. The person I prayed for, who was healed instantly, I left to them selves when they were healed, it seems rude to mess in a persons life, and demand they publish their healing. Some people do some don't.

If it seems rude to mess with a persons life, then why did you pray for them in the first place? Or is it ok to pray for them, but then not ask questions are even think about the potential results afterwards?

I'm sorry, but medical science has advanced on empirical evidence that evidences these steps forward through double blind trials, the publishing (and critique) of data, and ultimately the continuing review of the results over decades (potentially) to find flaws/errors and rule them out.

If miracles could be proven to occur, then they would be akin to a wonder cure, and the world would surely benefit from their occurrence (including myself). This Is why I and others repeatedly ask for empirical evidence and not a wishy washy account of "well, I know this guy who knows this guy who was healed through prayer." I'm sorry, but that type of 'evidence' won't cut it here, nor in reality per se.

Also sorry if I appear to be rude to you, or judgmental, it is the easiest fault for a Christian to present to people. I just get frustrated when I present my lifes experience, or present recorded facts, and people reason it all away and say it is not good enough.

I don't appreciate being labeled as a sinner for not agreeing with you. I have laid no insult at your feet, and I would appreciate the same courtesy.

I must also say, as per all the above and my previous posts, you haven't supplied any 'facts', rather opinion, anecdote, and unverifiable claims.

Again, I mean this not as an insult when I say that your life experiences do not mean a thing to me when it comes to providing evidence for the miraculous.

Life is not all about science and scientific method,

Reality would argue the contrary.

not every fact can be proved

They are 'facts' precisely because they have been proven. If a 'fact' has not been proven (as is the case with the miraculous), then the fault is with the person ascribing the label, not the term.

take for example my stories at http://www.futureandahope.net about God speaking, or communicating no one can prove that, you need to just trust people some times. Rather than call me a lier have a little bit of faith.

The key word being 'stories'.

Look, I have no qualms with people believing in miracles. if you believe that they work and exist, then fine, that's up to you. However, you need to factor in that we're dealing with people's lives here.

Another hypothetical: a T1 diabetic such as myself is advised by someone who believes they can cure me with prayer not to take their medicine (insulin). Without insulin,mid be dead within a week, maybe 2. However, the person believes they can cure me with prayer and that I won't need my insulin again.

What would you do?

It's not a black and white issue. What it is is false hope until proven otherwise, and false hope and be as dangerous as it is comforting to those desperate for a last way out as they stare death down.

Some times you need to put faith in the character of the person who is speaking.

It is the claim itself which is to be scrutinised first, with the character of the claimant being taken into account to judge possible patterns (such as bias and background in making equivelent claims).

Not every Christian is in it for money, I personally do not take donations. I have no reason to present the gospel message other than I have found it to be fact.

Again, that's fine. I have never accused you of doing whatever you do for money. But when your beliefs begin to impact on others, for good or ill,,then I take note and begin to question, as is my right.

All I'm asking for is evidence, the same evidence you would ask for should a stranger come up to you in the street and claim you were about to die from a deadly bacterial infection that was untreatable save for his own medical cure that only he has access to. That's it.