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Putting God to the Test
#63
RE: Putting God to the Test
(January 2, 2013 at 4:42 am)Penhorse340 Wrote: Ok, here's fun. Statistically, I believe that alcoholics are more likely to stay on the wagon if they have a religious element to their recovery.

Now I think that's nothing more than psychology, would work just as well if they were directed toward Vishnu, or Thor. However it can't be denied that they were healed, in part, by religion.
Of course it can be denied. It was the belief in religion, most likely, that increased the chances of improvement, and any associated behaviors, not the religion itself, nor any of the things believed in. At best, it's unclear that the religion itself was involved in any way. It's entirely possible that non-religious behaviors associated with religious belief were responsible (such as more, regular social activities).

Moreover, it's not clear that religion is responsible in the case of chemical dependency. (I presume you're referring to 12 step groups, among other things.) I was in a twelve step group for nicotine dependence. Much of the group chose non-spiritual things to represent their "higher power" (the group, a loved one, an inanimate object). Would these people's recovery have been attributed to "religion" by true believers? Quite likely. And then there's the element of fraud to be factored in. Christian chemical dependency programs are known to misrepresent their success rates. Were they counted? Religiously motivated research has a clear conflict of interest which warrants greater scrutiny of their results, scrutiny which often reveals serious methodological errors if not outright fraud. (e.g. Paul Cameron's representation of the results of the ISIS survey.)

Yes, I indeed can deny that religion healed these people of their chemical dependency issues, since 'religion' did nothing to heal them, and the evidence that the people heal at a higher rate due to their involvement with religion is equivocal. (Studies on specific measures may indicate greater well-being among the religious than the non-religious, yet studies of nations indicate that on measures of prosperity and well-being, the more secular nations fare better than the more religious nations. You could just as easily say that it can't be denied that religion is harming the people in these nations, by that standard.)


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Messages In This Thread
Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - December 31, 2012 at 7:55 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by LastPoet - December 31, 2012 at 8:40 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Faith No More - December 31, 2012 at 9:15 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by pocaracas - December 31, 2012 at 9:35 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - December 31, 2012 at 3:39 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by pocaracas - December 31, 2012 at 3:46 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FallentoReason - January 1, 2013 at 2:40 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 1, 2013 at 3:25 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FallentoReason - January 1, 2013 at 3:30 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Faith No More - December 31, 2012 at 9:39 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Minimalist - December 31, 2012 at 11:17 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by CapnAwesome - December 31, 2012 at 11:24 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by pocaracas - December 31, 2012 at 11:45 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by CapnAwesome - December 31, 2012 at 11:57 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Nine - December 31, 2012 at 12:03 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 31, 2012 at 12:35 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by TaraJo - December 31, 2012 at 12:46 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 31, 2012 at 12:58 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - December 31, 2012 at 3:54 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 31, 2012 at 5:22 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - December 31, 2012 at 5:54 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Norfolk And Chance - December 31, 2012 at 6:26 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - December 31, 2012 at 8:05 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 31, 2012 at 8:11 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by pocaracas - December 31, 2012 at 8:17 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 31, 2012 at 8:23 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 1, 2013 at 2:21 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Zen Badger - January 1, 2013 at 4:36 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - January 1, 2013 at 7:36 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 1, 2013 at 4:54 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - January 1, 2013 at 7:59 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 1, 2013 at 11:07 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - January 2, 2013 at 4:36 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 2, 2013 at 4:56 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Mister Agenda - January 2, 2013 at 3:32 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 2, 2013 at 8:03 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - December 31, 2012 at 6:31 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Angrboda - December 31, 2012 at 7:28 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Phish - December 31, 2012 at 1:19 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by CapnAwesome - December 31, 2012 at 1:53 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Welsh cake - December 31, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Re: Putting God to the Test - by Annik - December 31, 2012 at 5:12 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Cato - December 31, 2012 at 6:05 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Mister Agenda - December 31, 2012 at 6:15 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 1, 2013 at 7:05 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Zen Badger - January 1, 2013 at 7:12 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 1, 2013 at 7:17 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Zen Badger - January 1, 2013 at 7:30 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Penhorse340 - January 1, 2013 at 5:57 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Norfolk And Chance - January 1, 2013 at 7:08 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by KichigaiNeko - January 1, 2013 at 7:16 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by KichigaiNeko - January 1, 2013 at 7:18 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Cyberman - January 1, 2013 at 11:18 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by FutureAndAHope - January 2, 2013 at 12:01 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Cato - January 2, 2013 at 2:44 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Penhorse340 - January 2, 2013 at 4:36 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Cyberman - January 2, 2013 at 12:42 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Gambit - January 2, 2013 at 2:17 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by KichigaiNeko - January 2, 2013 at 3:42 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Penhorse340 - January 2, 2013 at 4:42 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Angrboda - January 2, 2013 at 2:01 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by KichigaiNeko - January 2, 2013 at 4:59 am
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - January 2, 2013 at 1:02 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by LastPoet - January 2, 2013 at 1:18 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Minimalist - January 2, 2013 at 1:27 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Cyberman - January 2, 2013 at 8:03 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Fidel_Castronaut - January 2, 2013 at 8:30 pm
RE: Putting God to the Test - by Justtristo - January 2, 2013 at 8:35 pm

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