(January 25, 2013 at 2:34 pm)fr0d0 Wrote:(January 25, 2013 at 11:24 am)pocaracas Wrote: And what if it is?
If it is then your outlook is bleak. If hate wins sometimes, your position would be to take that into account. Instead of a happy, positive person, you would be a sometimes cruel, hurt person. This is simply a result of your world view.
I just can't stop myself from wanting to butt in on your conversation which I've read front to back seeing as how it's my fiancees' thread.
I'd like to point out that your view of an athiest is ignorant at best. You may have known unhappy negative athiests, but I definitely know unhappy negative theists. We all can be cruel and hurtful, you're not exempt from this spectrum of humanity just because you believe in god or because of your "world view". What's more is you're no more a good person for your beliefs than I am for my non-beliefs. I'm a good person because I choose to do good. What's good, what's bad? For you everyone whose a christian and has the holy spirit within them, has a sense of right and wrong. Athiests have this too, how do you account for this?
First, lets take a look at that world view you've been gushing about having that no one here has. I've lived it all my life until this year, let's just take a look. What do you see and what do I now, see?
You see a hurricane and it's a natural disaster, just as I see it. But you look at it like a positive thing because you reason that it happened only because god allowed it to happen, therefore there must have been a reason for it that we will never know and only he knows. So you would look at a devastating event for your 'brothers and sisters', as a good thing. I would look at that same event and be saddened, yes. But at the same time I would know why it happened. Nature, chaos. You don't know why because god simply never tells his sheep why, yet you rationalize a good feeling out of something completely horrific. Even if one really good thing came out of a number of bad things, it is still a bad thing. But you see it as a good thing.
One example from real life of someone living in your "world view" applying this thinking in a hurtful way would be Pat Robertsons' assertion that New Orleans was a result of divine retribution.
You see an unrepentant murderer, I see the same. You see an evil soul destined for hell to be punished for his actions, I see a man whose done wrong in his life, yet there is nothing besides earthly justice for his crimes. What's done is done, I have peace in knowing that there's nothing that can be done besides look to the future and try to learn from the past. You on the other hand, watch him die by lethal injection with a sense of vindication knowing that he will be in hell for his actions. I see him die and cry because he was probably mentally ill or hurt so irreparably by someone else, that he became something incomprehensible. What's more is he's dying for a notion of "an eye for an eye", and in your bible it is not murder to kill a murderer for their crime.
I cry for him, and his victim, and I don't just stop there. I see hope that humanity can stop hurting one other one day by holding itself accountable, not in the next life but in this one. I hope that one day humanity can stop killing those that need the most study and understanding. I hope that mankind can stop fulfilling its' selfish want of retribution in order to bring light to what causes such evil in the first place, and avoiding it from continuing.
Yet at the time of this murderers' (justified in your eyes) death, you stop there, you brush your shoulders, and you move on. I don't forget, I can never forget, and I do everything in my power to help those who have been hurt so they won't hurt others, I fight mental illness in my own family and friends with as much conviction as you hold in your god assertion. I make a stand, in essence, with life--in hopes of improving it one person at a time. You have a passive at best attitude towards it that is the same attitude that allows these travesties to go on. So your belief system upholds the quid pro quo and then revels in punishing it, with no hope held of life being anything other than what it is. You wonder why athiests are hostile towards innocent zittle ole you: you're holding humanity back with your beliefs, not the other way around.
Oh I could go on all night with this, but I best not. If you want more examples, feel free to ask for specific ones, I'd be happy to discuss them with you. But in essence, I'm saying with this post, that your position that athiests are nothing but unhappy, sometimes cruel or hurtful people--is totally unfounded in every way imaginable, and I could definitely say the same about you. Whether you or I believe in god is immaterial because you and I both have the freedom of choice to choose right from wrong, and right from wrong is not dictated by a higher power. Nor am I unhappy in seeing reality for reality and not through your limited looking glass.
Maybe athiests have been cruel or hurtful to you but in all honesty--that would be a product of your own ignorance, I'm betting.
I have never been happier in my entire life, as I am now. It would take pages and pages for me to list all the reasons why, but in essence: I'm free of your 'world view'.
If I were to create self aware beings knowing fully what they would do in their lifetimes, I sure wouldn't create a HELL for the majority of them to live in infinitely! That's not Love, that's sadistic. Therefore a truly loving god does not exist!
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
Quote:The sin is against an infinite being (God) unforgiven infinitely, therefore the punishment is infinite.
Dead wrong. The actions of a finite being measured against an infinite one are infinitesimal and therefore merit infinitesimal punishment.
Quote:Some people deserve hell.
I say again: No exceptions. Punishment should be equal to the crime, not in excess of it. As soon as the punishment is greater than the crime, the punisher is in the wrong.
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