The logical consequences of omnipotence

[Esquilax]

This is simply true... sure, one can rationalise a just reality without God. but one CANNOT rationalise a just reality made possible with God... without God. That is logically contradictory

It has nothing to do with understanding, only to do with that which was stated. One cannot have something made by God, without God. There's actually a fairly deep philosophical depth this statement has, going so far as to suggest that 'without God, one cannot have things made by God'.

I agree on that point. Still feels like a semantic shell game to avoid discussing anything with substance, but yes, I'll acknowledge that god can't make things without existing.

Although, mind you, I at least wasn't discussing that. And even without believing myself, I find other people's justifications of their beliefs to be interesting, and worth examining. Something about being told I just wouldn't understand feels unsatisfying and, beyond that, contradictory to the spirit of religion as a replicating meme. That's why I feel uncomfortable just leaving the discussion there; it feels unfinished.