(February 26, 2013 at 3:44 pm)EGross Wrote: I must respectfully disagree that the Adam and Eve story has any free will at all. In fact, free will is taken away repeatedly.
God tells Adam don't do this or you will die. That is threat/coercion. No free will exists. If I tell you to give me your money or I will kill you, you have no free will. You will give me the money, and if you don't that is your fear reacting. Either way, that choice was taken away.
The next part is that Eve, who was never told this rule by God (she get's it wrong, and nothing happens to her after she eats. There is a Jewish Midrash that the snake wanted Adam to eat it so the serpent could mate with Eve. Cool, huh?). But she is seduced, and seduction removes free will, because the seducer has manipulated you into making his choice.
Adam shows up, and he is coerced and seduced by his wife, and he does so. Then "Zap" God finds out, they all get punished (She has painful births, Adam has to get a job, and the serpent will transform into a living phallus (hence the Midrash - he became what he desired).
But wait, here is the kicker...
God then confirms the snakes seduction and says that he doesn't want them to eat from the other tree, so in order to take free choice away, he kicks them out on the basis of what they might do! (We never find out what happened to Mrs. Serpent, by the way).
No free will there. Just coercion, threats, and seduction, and at the end, having any possibility taken away before you can get it.
The story of the garden is one of seduction, not one of free will. (My determinism is showing). It is not really about what happens when you sin, but what happens when you decide to do something that puts you at the same level as God, which the snake hinted at and which God later confirmed. (Never piss off the big guy! He is a jealous big guy with ego issues)
I never framed the Choice given to adam and eve in the Garden as the greek philosophy of free will. I have only ever refered to it as a Choice or an oppertunity to choose. I may have at some point even refered to this choice as the biblical interpertation of free will, but never have said that any of us at any point has what the greeks orginally defined as 'free will.'
(Which is the defination you are working with.)
