(February 27, 2013 at 2:16 pm)Drich Wrote:(February 26, 2013 at 3:44 pm)EGross Wrote: I must respectfully disagree that the Adam and Eve story has any free will at all. In fact, free will is taken away repeatedly.
I never framed the Choice given to adam and eve in the Garden as the greek philosophy of free will. I have only ever refered to it as a Choice or an oppertunity to choose. I may have at some point even refered to this choice as the biblical interpertation of free will, but never have said that any of us at any point has what the greeks orginally defined as 'free will.'
(Which is the defination you are working with.)
But i the story, God takes away the opportunity by kicking them out lest they choose to eat from the tree of eternal life. That is no choice at all, and is the closing punchline, which is the synopsis of the entire event, that no matter what you do, God can jump in and take choice away from you (Pharoah of Moses would agree with me on this...) making you sin when you don't want to or (Pharoah of Joseph would agree on this...) manipulating your life to do what he wanted anyhow.
There is a Midrash that says that when the Jews accepted the Torah, God held a mountain over their heads, warning them ahead of time that if they don't accept, then the mountain would fall on them. The author of that story was trying to point out that they had no choice. I prefer the alternate Midrash, which has Moses slaughtering animals in preparation for the big ceremoney. He is covered in blood. He holds the sword to the people and say "Accept! If not, you are next!"
Because if you really and truely believe in a God, then you have no choice. How can one say "no" who perfectly believes. But the non-believer, ah, well he does have a choice because there are so many options open, not just the one. And that is the paradox - the more you surrender, the less you are. And dogma would have you believe that such is the best thing there is, while reason would dictate otherwise.
“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders