Soul

[Tex]

I don't understand. The human soul is what we ordinarily refer to as our mind, or our consciousness?

Actually, yes. "Nous" in Koine Greek is "mind/consciousness", the thinking organ. However, the brain was not the thinking organ to the Greeks. The "mind" was an immaterial organ. In Greek poetry and philosophical work, after the body dies, the "nous" lives on. This is close to my understanding, although I see the brain as the thinking organ. The soul allows us to "abstract from the phantasms" (Aquinas) so when we see/hear/whatever, the soul can recognize immaterials (numbers, being the current subject matter, but also universal knowledge, organization, etc.).

You have to show how "We perceive numbers, therefore it means there is a soul or else we cannot perceive" is true.

I might as well do that here then. The eyes are a physical organ that allows light to enter and be processed by the brain. The ears sound waves. Multiple places allow for some sort of touch. However, these are all physical organs, so they perceive physical things. The eyes contain light, but those eyes do not understand until the brain processes. The ears contain pitches, but the brain understands it as the crunch of metal. With all our senses, only the basic ability of pulling in stimuli is done, and the brain processes. In order to prove that there is a soul, I would have to show that there is processing that goes on that the brain cannot do.

I'll stick with quantity as my example. I take you blindfolded into a room. When I take off the blindfold, you see there are 3 picture frames on the wall. The first thing that happens is the light enters your eyes. Next, your brain begins to process the light. However, the brain has not received any stimuli for quantity (immaterial). Quantity is not in the light received. Your eyes pick up physical data only. The brain processes the light only. Therefore, there must be some organ that is processing that light and understanding the "3". I call this soul.

Is the same true of colours?

Aristotle will say yes, but I do not. Color is a part of the light that enters your eyes. It is processed by the brain. No soul involvement.

Nice try. No need to beat yourself up though. We just hear the pitch for that particular brand of snake oil an awful lot around here. Your pitch can be mighty convincing if someone is looking to be convinced. I'm just not one of those.

More ignorant people will reject the advice of a doctor because the patient feels they, "know better". You claim your medicine will cure me of ignorance, and I claim the same. =)

Quantity always represents something material, or it represents something which itself represents or is intended to represent something material (to whatever degree removed), even if the object described is imaginary. Quantity does not exist independent of the material world.

You sit almost entirely in agreement with me here. Quantity never separates itself from a "substance" (so you can't just have some quantity floating around by itself), but a substance doesn't necessarily needs a physical body. In Christianity, this manifests in souls, angels, and God. Those are the only examples though, mainly cause most of the stuff in in the material universe. I also don't use these in the explanation because its really hard to point to an angel or soul and say "see!". I'd love to hear your input on the proof I have above for necessary immaterial organ, btw.

Ah man Math induction gives me a hardon.

What happens to your vaunted 'soul' when a person suffers trauma that changes the brain structure, completely changing his/her personality?

The soul continues to process immaterial stimuli. If there's brain damage, it doesn't affect the soul. I understand why you make this argument though; Christians have a very romanticized idea of the soul. Not me. The soul doesn't function to well for me after death or brain trauma or something. The soul needs the body for stimuli. If the body becomes damaged, the soul does not function well. The only thing the soul can do is understand immaterials in animals. Humans get a small bit of difference in the soul, "universal knowledge" and "will". When there is no body, there is nothing to act, even if willed. When the body is damaged, the universal knowledge and will stay, but the ability for the soul to receive decent stimuli has dropped dramatically. This is practiced by nearly no Christians anymore. It's a concept called "soul sleep".

Curious Tex, why do you assume that a soul must be immaterial and not substantial? Is that a necessary property of a soul, because I don't think so.

Immaterial substance. =) A human is the composite of parts, body and soul (and maybe one more...), and at death these separate. The soul still exists. Technically, the body still exists too, its just not very functioning. However, at death, there is no more human. A human is a composite of those parts. When I die, there is no more Tex. At resurrection, Tex is made whole.