Why do we need morals?

[Darkstar]

I think that maybe you're conflating the notion of value with a bioloical imperative. Our biological imperatives don't, in and of themselves, confer any objective value. The cheetah and the gazelle wish to have words with you as to whose biological imperatives confer more value to whose respective behaviours.

Well, I suppose that biological imperatives don't have any objective value in and of themselves, only towards serving the ultimate goals of the organism (i.e. living).

Well, I mean, if pressed, it's the case for me, but again I don;t think of it that way every second of every day - at least not consciously. I like to ponder true altruism, unprofitable empathy, and behaviors otherwise pointed at as decidedly not self interested, it;s just that when you really get down to the brass tacks, self interest never seems as far away as one might hope.

I think one can act in a way that isn't affected by self interest, but that may be evolved (or socially evolved). If one sacrifices him/herself to save ten, that confers a survival advantage on the species, even though is wasn't so fortunate for the selfless person.

Seems so, that their usualy equiocation between the terms and what they imagine follows. If something is subjective it would, by definition, not be arbitrary. If it's subjective it has to refer to something, the "subject". Nevertheless, subjective and arbitrary are often used interchangeably.

Well, I suppose it would then depend on what constitutes a "good" reason. If the subject decides that the fact he doesn't feel that murder is wrong makes it right, there is obviously a serious problem, even though he may technically have a reason (but not one most people would consider valid).

Stated and well defined goals are pretty objective - the way to reach that goal may not be though. In my estimation working out what is right and what is wrong is very objective - even if the goal is subjective. I accept that I start with a preference, a potentionally irrational conjecture- what I do from there, that's what interests me. I agree, that if we could agree on a goal it would be much easier from there. We actually see the inklings of this in the whole divine reward song and dance. To achieve the goal of the grace of a god- people are entreated to do x, y, and z. The trouble is that the goal itself was trash, and how doing x y and z was supposed to achieve that goal (that could not be quantified) was then and remains to this very day...a complete mystery. I blame this on the people who wrote the stories..lol.

You bring up a valid point, but this returns to what I said before: how do we know that our subjective goal is a good one, and what would such a goal be? Could it be, perhaps, to reduce human suffering, promote fairness, and protect life? (Given that all life deems suffering as bad...unless they are heartless of sadistic, that people have an innate sense of fairness*, and that all organisms strive to live)

*http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/15...80518.html