Miracles and Anti-supernaturalism

[BettyG]

The Roman soldiers who crucified people were experts at their jobs, they would have never allowed Jesus off that cross if they did not know He was dead. It would have cost them their lives, it is told to us that when the spear was run through His side a mix of blood and water poured out, Jesus had bleed out and pouring out bodily fluids. Again the Romans were proficient at crucifying people, they would break the legs of those still alive after a certain amount of time so they would suffocate shortly after that. They did not do that to Jesus, as prophecy foretold, they knew He was dead.

I asked this in another thread. Maybe slightly off-topic here but I would really like an answer:

Ok, please explain this to me. If I commit the ultimate sin of not believing in jesus, I will be cast into hell and tortured for eternity.

However, jesus, who took on the sins of all mankind, was crucified, dead for three days, then rose and now sits at the right hand of god. Never did ANY time at all in hell, didn't stay dead, and basks in the light of himself for all eternity.

So how does this work? I go to hell forever for my sins but my sins were forgiven by a guy who had a really bad hangover for a couple of days?

Jesus forgives those who repent and are committed to not sinning again. Salvation is a process. You have to continue in a state of grace.

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I am defining miracles as special acts of God in the world. Since miracles are special acts of God, they can only exist where there is a God who can perform such acts.

No, you defined them as the opposite.

I started this thread. I get to define miracles.
I am defining miracles as special acts of God in the world and time. Since miracles are special acts of God, they can only exist where there is a God who can perform such acts. If one does not believe in God, then they cannot say miracles, as I define them, are impossible.

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I think you are making a religion out of science. Science can only tell us about physical things. It is limited in its ability to tell us about truth. It cannot be used to explore metaphysical things. Only reason, logic and intuition are appropriate tools for metaphysical topics.

I get the impression that you use the word "physical" as a substitute for "reality" and "metaphysical" as a substitute for "fantasy." It makes one seem as plausible as the other when you put it that way, but it doesn't change that you're comparing reality to fantasy.

metaphysical - of or relating to the transcendent or to a reality beyond what is perceptible to the senses. It deals with some important questions, such as:
What is the meaning of Life?
What is my purpose?
What is God?
What is reality?
Why am I here?
Why does anything exist instead of nothing?
How did I get here?
Who and what am I?
What will happen when I die?

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You are not dealing with a rational mind, Zar.

Anyone who believes in such hooey needs professional help and probably heavy duty medication.

Ad hominem attacks are not an appropriate method of debate. Stick to the topic.
I hear a circular argument: If miracles are impossible, the report of any miraculous event must be false, and therefore, miracles are impossible.

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FallentoReason: Pffft! 3 hours?! God is eternal. A finite punishment is drowned out by an infinite life.
BettyG: Jesus was both fully human and fully divine. He was fully capable of feeling excruciating pain. 

Ok. So what?

FallentoReason: Or if you're all-powerful, because nails ain't gonna do crap.
BettyG:They put holes in His hands. Try it and see how it feels. 

People have been through waaay worse in torture camps. And, given that Christianity is true, there's most likely the possibility that some of these torture victims were not saved and hence are experiencing an infinite punishment. Poor omnipotent Jesus' experience doesn't even come close to that.

FallentoReason: And he did this while being all-knowing... knowing that he was going to see the light of day again.
BettyG: How does knowing the future take away the pain one is experiencing NOW?

Because there was no sacrifice! He went into it knowing he won't stay dead. Nothing was lost and he knew this from the beginning.

FallentoReason: You can't kill a god. That's why there was no sacrifice.
BettyG:I realize it is difficult to comprehend that Jesus could be both fully human and divine at the same time. The Romans killed His human flesh, not His divinity.

What does a bunch of skin and bones mean to an omnimax being?? Even if it was a major loss to such an entity, he resurrected anyways. There was nothing lost, no sacrifice to be had.

FallentoReason:: So... where's the sacrifice again?
BettyG: I do not see anyone lining up to volunteer to be crucified. Jesus did it of His own free will. 

I wonder why he signed up... oh yeah, being omnipotent and omniscient, it was going to be a winning battle from the beginning. A mortal bodyguard taking a bullet for someone is more of a sacrifice than whatever Jesus allegedly did.

merriam-webster.com Definition of SACRIFICE
1: an act of offering to a deity something precious; especially : the killing of a victim on an altar
2: something offered in sacrifice
3a : destruction or surrender of something for the sake of something else
b : something given up or lost <the sacrifices made by parents>

1: Jesus offered Himself to the Father.
2: Jesus offered Himself.
3 He offered Himself for the forgiveness of sins.
4: He suffered the injustice of a shameful death, though He was innocent.