Atheism and morality

[Inigo]

I still don't understand the argument, it would be more simple if you just tried to prove me wrong when I say all my morals I have come from being taught, brainwashed, educated (whatever you want to call it) when I was younger. That along with the empathy, guilt, instincts I have of wanting to preserve myself along with my genetic code and other people who share my DNA closely, for example my close family.
Why does any of this need a god? Or if you don't like the wording of the question because you seem to constantly pick at my precise wording why does any of this mean god exists, why does it require a god to exist, whichever words you want to use, what does morality, moral sense or anything like that have in relation to a supernatural being? What does the afterlife have to do with morals or moral sense?

I drew a distinction that you are ignoring. Do you understand that I do not dispute the existence of moral sensations or beliefs? Do you understand that I do not think those things require a god?

moral sensations and beliefs exist. You have them, I have them, virtually everyone has them and their content has been discussed as long as there are records of humans discussing anything. They launch crusades, inspire great sacrifice, get people tortured and so on.

Moral sensations and beliefs exist. Where do they 'come from'? Well, I'm not sure - it is beside the point. You're providing an partial account of where they 'come from' when you talk about parents and upbringing and empathy and so on. All perfectly plausible. But all perfectly beside the point. For I am not talking about moral sensations and beliefs. Just take it as read that I accept their existence and that I do not for one moment think they require the existence of a god. THey exist for certain, but a god may not.

Morality is NOT those sensations and beliefs. Morality is the thing sensed, the thing believed. That doesn't mean it exists. THe existence of a sense of X does not entail the existence of X. Some people have a sense of god. THat doesn't mean god exists. When a sensation gives us the impression of something that doesn't really exist we call it a hallucination. Sometimes our visual sensations have nothing answering to them (such as when we are dreaming - we have visual impressions when we are dreaming, but there is nothing answering to them - a dream is a hallucination), and so on. Our senses can let us down.

Now, moral sensations and beliefs exist. There is no disputing that. They do not require a god. And you can keep telling me about their existence and development and how they do not require a god until you are blue in the face. It is pointless. I know they do not require a god. I am not claiming they do.

I am claiming that if no god exists, there is nothing answering to those sensations or beliefs. So, if no god exists then our moral sensations constitute a hallucination and our moral beliefs are systematically false. They will still exist, and your stories about how they developed will still be true. But the sensations will be hallucations and the beliefs false. So your story will be a story about how it has come to pass that we have this hallucination, and how it has come to pass that we have all these false beliefs.