Atheism and morality

[max-greece]

You are fundamentally not understanding the position I am outlining. Morality doesn't belong to a person. Morality refers to instructions and favourings of a god (so I am arguing). Talk of 'god's morality' or 'my morality' is misleading - it suggests morality is like an item of clothing, or is something one person might have and another not. Morality is the instructions and favourings of a god.

Can this god's instructions and favourings change over time? Well of course they can. Doesn't mean they have - but they can. Why think otherwise? what can't change is the god's resolve to harm the interests of those who do not do as she instructs at any given time. But what she instructs us to do can alter, for her tastes may change.

You ask 'how can this be?' Well, I've just explained. Note: I am not claiming this has happened. If morality exists then it appears very stable over time. But it may not be fixed. Perhaps it is, but it may not be. I see no reason to think it must be fixed. Again, I am not saying it has changed. I am just saying it is capable of changing.

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That takes a very dim view of humanity - and one that is encouraged by Religion so that all goodness can be allocated to God.

Morality is its own reward - there is no need for rewards in heaven. Its the feel good factor as much as anything else.

For example: the other day I was walking the dog and came across a wallet in the park. In the wallet was an a bank statement. The address was close by so I dropped it off on the way back. No reward required - I felt good all day.

My view of humanity is no dimmer than yours. I am not denying that you behaved as you did, am I? What I am saying is that if there is no god then what you did was rational if and only if doing it served some ends of yours. And it did.

Happily, most of us have no real desire to be gits. Most of us like being nice, kind, benevolent etc (at least to a degree). And so most of us have reason to behave in these ways irrespective of whether there is a god.

But that doesn't show morality to exist. Imagine you found that wallet and you really wanted to keep the money and use the bank statement to somehow take out loans in that person's name or something like that. That's what you wanted to do. And imagine you can get away with it as well (or perhaps that you just don't care about getting caught and don't mind prison). What reason do you have to return the wallet now? None, if morality does not exist.

Now, you might say 'oh, but I would never be like that'. but that misses the point. the point is that your actions are not right just because you want to perform them or have ends that performing them will serve. If your actions are right it is because MORALITY instructs them. You have nothing to do with it. Giving the wallet back and being nice etc was not right just because you happened to want to do it.

If God's morality (enforcement if you prefer) can change with time then you lose all ability to judge another's morality. If it can change with time it can change with each and every individual all the time. The man that goes out and murders prostitutes can argue that is what his morality told him to do - and you can't prove he didn't get that from God.

Usually people argue a morality from God position as it is easier to make judgements on another's morality that way. Your inconsistent God makes that impossible.

You are now missing the point entirely with regard to the wallet story. One person makes the moral decision to return the wallet, not for reward but simply for the pleasure it gives them. Another may choose to do otherwise. That's morality for you - not consistent. Morality is constantly at war with other emotions, thoughts and feelings - self interest being a common one.

The thing that you don't understand is that I made the decision to return the wallet simply because it was in my self interest to do so. The money or benefit I might have gained was worth less to me than the warm feeling doing the right thing provided.

Heaven doesn't come into it. I cannot imagine I have any chance of getting into heaven as an atheist - so being moral has no inducements from outside. As explained above, fortunately, they are not required.

Frankly having seen your arguments they carry so much that smacks of religion I have huge doubts you were ever atheist. You are far to ready to allocate good things to God and only evil to man.

The idea that people only behave morally through threat of punishment from God is a nauseating one that permeates Christianity.