RE: Hello everyone!!
December 2, 2008 at 9:45 am
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2008 at 10:13 am by Edwardo Piet.)
Errr, doesn't that completely contradict the parts in the bible when it says atheists shall go to hell? Or do you already know that? 
HOW we die on the other hand...as you know, there are many ways.
Old age, disease, starvation, poison, nasty accidents, being killed by something living (including another human). The list goes on and on as you know.
Also there's no reason to ask "Why do these things kill us?" because the answer is the same. There is no reason or purpose to it that we need to know. There is no evidence of one. No reason to think there is one. Why do these things kill us? Once again, no reason. Its more of a HOW. How do they kill us? Because we're imperfect beings! We're natural we're not gods or anything supernatural or 'god-made'. We're animals. We're merely 'higher-apes'.
The only reason we think we have special value is because we give ourselves it. WE say we're special.
Indeed we are evidently the most intelligent species on OUR planet at least. But thats not to say we're anything 'special' and certainly nothing made in "God's image" or divine. That is truly arrogance. Total conceit.
Daystar, it seems to me that, you - like many other theists - are confusing "why?" and "how?" with each other. They are - of course - different questions.
Unless you of course, think that we really do need a reason WHY we die. As in what is the purpose. Like "what is the purpose of the universe?". There is no reason to believe we DO need one. Why does the universe need a purpose? Why does there have to be a purpose to death? Because us - as evolved imperfect beings - say so? Thats no reason for it to need a purpose. As far as we know it doesn't have or need one. You can investigate it and contemplate it as much as you know but no one has EVER come up with a satisfactory objective answer to an ultimate purpose. Sure you can have subjective purposes. Your own purposes. But when you talk about "God's purpose", the "purpose of the universe" or "the purpose of life" itself. Or the "purpose of death". As far as we know thats completely nonsensical. There's no evidence of any purpose in these things. No reason to believe otherwise untill the evidence comes in.
You can look for reasons, you can search for evidence. But until actually IS any. There isn't one. And the universe actually is just completely natural. Its not designed. Life is not designed.
And I believe everything points to this being the case. And I believe this will always be the case. I think I can be as certain about that, as I can about gravity. About the fact that gravity exists. About the fact that if I jump off a roof I will fall. I won't stay airborn.
There is no "ultimate purpose" to death because there is no reason to think that there is purpose to "life" or the universe itself. Until any real evidence to the contrary comes in. And I don't believe it ever will. It goes completely against all the natural laws of the unviverse that we know of. It would indeed be a miracle. A change in the natural order. It would go against [i]everything[i/] we really do know. Against all science. It would be supernatural. To go against the natural order breaks every rule in the book. There are no changes in the natural order. No miracles and nothing supernatural. Just as there IS indeed a gravity. The two would completely and utterly contradict each other. It would be impossible.
But we do know that gravity actually exists, so nothing supernatural can come in and contradict it because gravity and every other natural law(s) would cease to be or make any sense. It just doesn't work that way. There is no such thing as the supernatural by very definition. Everything that we know DOES exist is natural. The supernatural contradicts the natural just as miracles contradict gravity. There is no place for the supernatural and miracles in reality.
(December 1, 2008 at 11:28 pm)Daystar Wrote: I think that we were made to be perfect and life forever and that is a part of us. Since the cells in the body just keep rejuvenating science can't really explain why we die.There are many reasons, as you know, HOW we die. But WHY we die? Why should there be a reason for it? We're imperfect natural beings. We are 'higher apes'. Just as the universe is natural and there is no known ultimate 'purpose', 'meaning' or 'reason' to it. And no reason to think there is one at all. Why is there a reason to think that we die for a reason? Why do we die? Because its natural. We are imperfect. There is no 'purpose' to it as far as we know.
HOW we die on the other hand...as you know, there are many ways.
Old age, disease, starvation, poison, nasty accidents, being killed by something living (including another human). The list goes on and on as you know.
Also there's no reason to ask "Why do these things kill us?" because the answer is the same. There is no reason or purpose to it that we need to know. There is no evidence of one. No reason to think there is one. Why do these things kill us? Once again, no reason. Its more of a HOW. How do they kill us? Because we're imperfect beings! We're natural we're not gods or anything supernatural or 'god-made'. We're animals. We're merely 'higher-apes'.
The only reason we think we have special value is because we give ourselves it. WE say we're special.
Indeed we are evidently the most intelligent species on OUR planet at least. But thats not to say we're anything 'special' and certainly nothing made in "God's image" or divine. That is truly arrogance. Total conceit.
Daystar, it seems to me that, you - like many other theists - are confusing "why?" and "how?" with each other. They are - of course - different questions.
Unless you of course, think that we really do need a reason WHY we die. As in what is the purpose. Like "what is the purpose of the universe?". There is no reason to believe we DO need one. Why does the universe need a purpose? Why does there have to be a purpose to death? Because us - as evolved imperfect beings - say so? Thats no reason for it to need a purpose. As far as we know it doesn't have or need one. You can investigate it and contemplate it as much as you know but no one has EVER come up with a satisfactory objective answer to an ultimate purpose. Sure you can have subjective purposes. Your own purposes. But when you talk about "God's purpose", the "purpose of the universe" or "the purpose of life" itself. Or the "purpose of death". As far as we know thats completely nonsensical. There's no evidence of any purpose in these things. No reason to believe otherwise untill the evidence comes in.
You can look for reasons, you can search for evidence. But until actually IS any. There isn't one. And the universe actually is just completely natural. Its not designed. Life is not designed.
And I believe everything points to this being the case. And I believe this will always be the case. I think I can be as certain about that, as I can about gravity. About the fact that gravity exists. About the fact that if I jump off a roof I will fall. I won't stay airborn.
There is no "ultimate purpose" to death because there is no reason to think that there is purpose to "life" or the universe itself. Until any real evidence to the contrary comes in. And I don't believe it ever will. It goes completely against all the natural laws of the unviverse that we know of. It would indeed be a miracle. A change in the natural order. It would go against [i]everything[i/] we really do know. Against all science. It would be supernatural. To go against the natural order breaks every rule in the book. There are no changes in the natural order. No miracles and nothing supernatural. Just as there IS indeed a gravity. The two would completely and utterly contradict each other. It would be impossible.
But we do know that gravity actually exists, so nothing supernatural can come in and contradict it because gravity and every other natural law(s) would cease to be or make any sense. It just doesn't work that way. There is no such thing as the supernatural by very definition. Everything that we know DOES exist is natural. The supernatural contradicts the natural just as miracles contradict gravity. There is no place for the supernatural and miracles in reality.
