The problem with this argument is that the concepts involved are too vague and can be interpreted in many ways. For example:
That depends on the meaning of free will you accept. What exactly is your will supposed to be free from? Your circumstances? Your past? Your own nature and desires? Others humans? God's will? All of the above?
Depending upon the meaning of free-will one accepts, humans may or may not have free will.
Again, debatable. Do you mean here that he set up things a particular way in the beginning or that he interferes for corrections?
Maybe, or maybe not. Maybe free will simply means that god won't get into your head to alter your will - thus giving you technical freedom from his will but he can rearrange things around you to make you do something. Maybe god set up the dominoes in the beginning and your will right now is the result of them falling - but it is still free form other influences. Depending upon your understanding of the concepts, this may or may not be true.
The problem here is that the concepts can be used in many ways. That leaves a lot of wiggle-room for theists to rationalize their way out of it. And I don't think it can be improved without a lot of debate establishing a definite meaning of those concepts.
By the way, how long does everyone think it will be before GC pops up shouting "the only free-will you have is in choosing Jesus - nowhere else"? I give it 24 hours.
(July 20, 2013 at 6:23 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: P1) Humans have free will to choose otherwise than they did (libertarian).
That depends on the meaning of free will you accept. What exactly is your will supposed to be free from? Your circumstances? Your past? Your own nature and desires? Others humans? God's will? All of the above?
Depending upon the meaning of free-will one accepts, humans may or may not have free will.
(July 20, 2013 at 6:23 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: P2) God's providence over history is such that he orders things overall to accomplish his divine plan.
Again, debatable. Do you mean here that he set up things a particular way in the beginning or that he interferes for corrections?
(July 20, 2013 at 6:23 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: P3) If [P2] is true, then God's 'orderings' of history will by necessity transgress on an agent's ability to have done otherwise ([P1]) in at least some capacity.
Maybe, or maybe not. Maybe free will simply means that god won't get into your head to alter your will - thus giving you technical freedom from his will but he can rearrange things around you to make you do something. Maybe god set up the dominoes in the beginning and your will right now is the result of them falling - but it is still free form other influences. Depending upon your understanding of the concepts, this may or may not be true.
(July 20, 2013 at 6:23 am)MindForgedManacle Wrote: P4) In the worldview of Abrahamic monotheists, [P2] is true.
C) Therefore, in the worldview of an Abrahamic monotheist there can be no certainty regarding the libertarian concept of free will's truth at any given point.
Hm, I'm not really sure about this argument. And I don't tend to try to use omniscience to rule out "free will" either.
I'm not sure if I'm progressing through the argument very well. Where does the argument go wrong and can it be fixed?
The problem here is that the concepts can be used in many ways. That leaves a lot of wiggle-room for theists to rationalize their way out of it. And I don't think it can be improved without a lot of debate establishing a definite meaning of those concepts.
By the way, how long does everyone think it will be before GC pops up shouting "the only free-will you have is in choosing Jesus - nowhere else"? I give it 24 hours.
